Unruly little kids in bad environments...

[theyeti]

So theyeti is finished playing 2 whole soccer games in one day, one of which went into overtime. Theyeti's aunt, who lives in town, wants us to come over and visit her in her tiny apartment. Theyeti thinks, "OK... there is a couch there I can lay down on and watch TV. AND eat free kentucky fried chicken (she works there)."

BUZZ. WRONG.

Turns out, the tiny little apartment is also occupied by two little kids under 4 and their parents, who let's just say... are unqualified at this point in their lives. The little kids run around the whole time screaming and pretending to be lemurs (I am not making this up) riding on toy fire trucks with actual sirens.

I found a bedroom and layed down for most of the time, but the door didn't have a lock on it...

[Radu]

They're only four, and they already know what a lemur is? Smart kids. :)

Serously, though, sounds rough. Just be glad that you eventually got to leave. Imagine spending a whole day, or even a few days, at a house like that.

And, hey, they may even be good parents, and you just caught them on a bad day. I know some parents who keep good care of their children, and their children are sweethearts most of the time (did I just say "sweetheart"?), but sometimes the parents just need a break and let their kids run loose.

[jamesglewisf]

Sounds like fun. {dizzy}

[dreuby]

Could be worse ... they could both be twins {eek2}

[Alec]

The problem with kids that are unruly at home is that they are usually just as unruly in public. It means that you can't take them out to eat, to a movie, to the grocery store, etc. without them running amuck.

[Grimey]

Why do people have an unruly kid in a restaurant and ignore her?

I was at a place the other day where a little girl threw temper tantrums about ever 18.56 minutes. About that. Yeah. Anyhow, her parents just sat their and ignored her or tried to soothe her.

I mean take her outside or discipline her or something. Don't ruin everyone else's meal.

The "ignore the tantrum" method of dealing with children is supposed to be used at home, not in public.

[Stormwind]

Actually the ignore the tantrum method is supposed to be used all the time in order to eliminate tantrums as a behavior. The minute one gives in and either tries to discipline or soothe the toddler they are REWARDING the tantrum behavior.

The theory goes that all behavior is a function of its reward. So when the child throwing a tantrum finds that all or some of the time the tantrum is rewarded with either attention or the thing that they wanted, they will continue to use tantrums as a means of getting the desired result.

If a parent who is trying to eliminate tantrums responds even once or only in public, they are guaranteed of getting another tantrum the next time they are in public. The child learns that sometimes it will get them what they want (attention) and sometimes it won't. They have nothing to lose.

Even punishment is a reward in this case- by showering attention on the child. Soothing is also a reward, as is giving in to the thing that the child appears to want. In other words there is NO lose in this situation for the child. The parent is the one that sets the conditions for the tantrum behavior to continue.

The way to extinguish a behavior is to not reward or punish it in any fashion, positive or negative AT ANY TIME- in other words ignore it. It will take a while for the child to realize that it won't be rewarded any further but it will slowly eliminate tantrums. Paying attention- by punishing or soothing- even once- will continue the behavior, as the child will continue to test at other times to see if it works.

[Grimey]

If that is the case, then don't take the kid to restaurants until the tantrum phase is over. It is not OK to do your child training at the expense of everyone else in the restaurant.

[jamesglewisf]

The parenting class I took told us to always consider the preciousness of others. Letting your kid scream repeatedly in a restaurant doesn't hack it.

With our own daughter, we had a period where we just didn't eat out much.

[dreuby]

With our own daughter, we had a period where we just didn't eat out much.

The circle of life ... we're approaching the age now where our children won't be wanting to take us out to eat because of our behaviour! ;-D

[Justawoman]

I know this thread is old. I had to write something. First, I hope those kids got out of their lemur stage. When I took my first airplane ride, at 18, to meet my husbands parents in Dallas I thought it was going to be an exciting visit. The minute I entered their house I met by my husband's nephew of 4 year. (this was 21 years ago) This beautiful looking child wa crouched under a table chair in his underwear barking like a dog. It was loud bark. I am sure my eyes were larger than my whole head. My in-laws, who raised him, ignored him. You would hear an occassional, "get up Ray, act right Ray." But pretty much he was left alone and provided the backdrop music for our first supper. After we were married and we lived in Dallas for the first 4 years I witnessed how his tantrums, acting out, etc.... were just ignored. They never attempted to teach him any sort of social manners. Where is he now...... In prison. I believe because he was never taught there are consequences to all bad behavior. You can't let children just have free rein in any setting. He honestly believes he doesn't have to work, get along with anyone, or that anything he does is wrong. It is always someone elses fault when his world crashes down around him. I do believe (unlike crosswind) that you need to re-enforce positive behavior and lovingly correct bad. With our daughters (19,17,15,10) if they threw a fit in a public setting we left. They didn't get any toys, clothes, etc.... we went home empty handed. It didn't take them long to realize what behavior was acceptable. We also tried to pick eating establishments that were baby, toddler, etc... friendly. It does make a difference where you take a baby in public especially if eating out. I always wanted the less stressful and relaxed environments. We also never allowed loud disruptful behavior in our home when we had company. I am proud to say that our daughters get complimented on their manners. But to just ignore bad behavior... I disagree. I always told my daughters when we would go out in public (when the older ones were much younger), "if you embarrass me in public I have the same right to do that to you." I never had to use that threat. I think they knew I would do just that.

[theyeti]

I was in the same situation as my original post today. No kids this time tho :) Actually now, the problem the family is talking about is a different kid, about 11 or 12... doesn't need discussing tho.

[Madge]

Sorry to be digging up a thread that is so old, but it was interesting to me. I agree totally that there are little ones out there with the behavior of a wooly mammoth, and parents who believe that the child needs to "express" themselves, no matter where they are. I've seen it so many times, and just cannot fathom how parents can bring their kids to a restaurant and sit by blindly as they tear the place apart and make for a very unpleasanat dining experience for those around them. It galls me. The parents, not the kids.

What's WORSE by far is seeing a parent or parents with little ones who berate and yell at the kids, loudly. I was in a grocery store a few weeks ago, and there was a family shopping. The children were SO cute, and very young - 2 or 3 maybe. One of the kids asked for a bag of candy, and the parent went bonkers!! Yelling, screaming, swearing at the kid to the point where I said something. I was almost in tears and felt sick to my stomach watching this little kid being picked on and bullied by its own parent. I, of course, was told to mind my own business, but I couldn't stand it. I was in a restaurant once where a little boy spilled his chocolate milk, and the mother was BRUTAL to him, calling him "stupid" and an "idiot". I got up, paid my bill and left. I was actually so upset I felt ill. I think people should be made to take tests before they conceive to make sure they're fit for the job.

[JacMac]

I have always said the same thing. Not just anyone can do open heart surgery, we should do society the same justice to stop stupid people from breeding.


Okay, that was a little harsh, I know, but seriously - I quit teaching because of it.

[Justawoman]

For some reason I love watching Malcolm In The Middle. This is what this whole thread reminds me of. That shows exactly what happens when the parents themselves can't discipline their self-control and the kids feed off of it. But for some reason I find that show comical. In life it sure is anything but funny to see that.

JacMac, my mom was ready to retire from teaching. She was at our school system for 30 years. She said the 90's brought in a era where even teachers have their hands tied and disciplining a child is out of the question. More and more unruly children who have parents that don't see anything wrong with chaos are being put into special ed classes simply because they disrupt the classroom. I am not for spankings at school but when your hands are tied to any form of discipline I am sure it is frustrating and then top it off with parents who think their lil one is an angel and the school is just singling them out.

[JacMac]

It's so true. I think the only thing that may change this is those of my generation who remember what good discipline did for them are starting to have kids now and know the damage the previous "child empowerment" stuff done. Children need to be respected and loved and have the right to not be abused and to get the most out of education and technology now-a-days, but not at the price of respect for authority, discipline, and rules of good humanitarian practice. There is a fine line we need to seek out here, and my optimism tells me it is possible. Your children sound well rounded, well mannered and hopefully they will grow up to instill those values in their children. That is the only way to battle the ignorance that has swept the country this past decade!

[dreuby]

For some reason I love watching Malcolm In The Middle. This is what this whole thread reminds me of.

I wish I could be like Malcom's mum- she speaks, they jump. {toothy} I speak, mine grunt (if I'm lucky!) {rolleyes} Perhaps I need to get the scripts, and use them as needed.

[Madge]

I have very little knowledge of "Malcolm in the Middle" - I have only seen promos. I have the feeling it is humorous in a "non-perfect world" but I also have the feeling that if "Real" Moms acted that way, the Departments of Children and Families would be much busier, unfortunately (I have NO regard for them at all. So many little ones are harmed by their NOT doing their jobs and letting things go swept under the table). JacMac - I'm sorry you no longer teach, but I have a feeling it is the best for you that you do not. I couldn't do it, either. I think (by reading your posts and having the feeling for you that I do) that you would make an AWESOME teacher in a private school setting, or maybe in a Montessory school. I just don't understand the way things are now - I can't imagine having the values and enthusiasm of someone truly dedicated to teaching and being under the thumbs of politics and under funded systems and having to deal with parents as they are these days. I remember being in school - if I got in trouble, I knew that was BAD, but I knew it would be WORSE when I got home!! Children have no feeling of consequence - if they get a detention, the parent will make an excuse and fight to the death for it NOT being carried out because it will effect their work or personal life.

[Justawoman]

We were raised the same way Madge. If we got in trouble at school and it was justified, then we got punished at home. I don't remember ever getting spanked by my mom. She did however ground us or give us extra chores. That is how we do our girls. Education is a must and to get a good one you have to be focused.

The mother in Malcolm is psycho. She goes nuts over the littlest thing. I love that show but can't imagine ever getting my family to do anything for me if I was screamer and jumped to all the wrong conclusions. Malcolm makes that shows and the youngest one, Dewey. Malcolm talking us through the show, now that is good scripting.

[Madge]

What my Mom would do is even WORSE than what yours did, J.A.W. - she told me she was DISAPPOINTED in me, would shake her head and walk away!!! I coulda DIED when she did that - fortunately I don't remember it happening much!! It took a while for her to "come around" - I found out later she staged the whole thing, the little leprechan!!!

[Justawoman]

I do that with our children Madge. The whole voice my disappointment and our girls can't stand that. Make them think about it and they seem to go nuts trying to show that they won't act that way again.

I have to give props to my mom. She has been a great help in raising our children. It most definitely was not just me and my hubby. It took our whole entire family. My siblings helped and our girls always knew that the entire family expected good behavior. We never expect them to be perfect angels just well rounded young ladies.

To be honest I knew I had my work cut out for me when the two oldest were 8 and 6. The Hunchback of Notre Dame was out and I had bought it for them to watch. I put it in and went about doing my work. I hear crying in the living room and go to check on them. I just stand there and watch. My two small children are discussing and crying over the fact that the Hunchback is being made fun at the carnival when the crowd reveals it is him. They kept saying that it was wrong to do that to people. I was amazed at them. We had never really had an opportunity to discuss appearances of people that look different than us. But they knew already. They still don't like watching that movie.

[Madge]

Sounds to me as if your children are a real asset to the world. I admire the way they've been brought up - to my way of thinking, that fact right there reserves your place in Heaven with the Big Guy. You done good, girl!!

[Justawoman]

Thanks.

I think sometimes grownups forget we are just lil kids in big bodies. I have always tried to treat my girls like I would want them to treat me.

[raybeck]

I look at my girls and their children and think how hard it would be to raise kids these days. I still can't believe my girls are grown and have their own families!!! It happens too quickly. I'm extremely close to our girls, as is their Dad. I am so proud of them and what they stand for. They were raised to know right from wrong and to love the Lord and it shows!!! (sorry, just had to brag a little bit there...)

[Justawoman]

I don't consider that braggin Raybeck. It never hurts to toot your horn once in awhile. Congrats on such a loving family. It makes life that much easier.

Wonder what happened to JacMac??? Business must be booming or so I hope.

[raybeck]

Thanks JAW, isn't it nice to have a family you can be so proud of? We have kin folks that can't brag on their kids, that must be painful!!!

[Justawoman]

So do we raybeck. We have a nephew that no one in the family is suppose to know he is in prison. I find that fact sadder than the realization that he did something to land him there. I have always felt that if you over look bad behaviour you are saying it is okay to be bad.

[Madge]

It is a sad thing indeed when a person has children they cannot brag about. It's very painful, especially when the parent tried as hard as they could to do the right things by them. Very sad - and hard to live with.

[Justawoman]

That is true Madge. But what about those parents who think a child will just turn out okay if they don't do anything. That is what is wrong with our nephew. The parents just buried their heads in the sand everytime he did something that was not character building. Now they still try to hide the fact that he is a screw up. I think they know it reflects on them and they are ashamed.

[JacMac]

hello all! wow...
thanks JAW - business is well on it's way but I have 3 classes left! Don't graduate until April 17th. A few weeks off will be nice.

Thank you Madge. I actually loved this class in college on constructivist teaching where you guide the child to their own discovery. It was so cool to set something up and watch the child teach themselves - empowering for both of us. However, it took a LOT of work and people don't want to bother, not for the salary of teachers or truthfully because they wanted to teach for the hours and free summers and because it beats being in an office. Those attitudes from teachers killed me. I would enjoy teaching at a montessory but I'm so glad I have found another passion with animal work. It is self-gratifying, non-stressful, and heart-warming all at once. I consider myself a lucky duck...or dog...hee hee...

I also COMPLETELY hear you on the mom disappointment thing. I never really got grounded, and was spanked twice that I can remember. My main motivation to be a good kid was to never let my mom down. I loved that woman...

[Justawoman]

But at least she set boundaries Jac. I do feel for those kids who never learn there are boundaries and rules for every situation in life. They get out in the real world and the real world bites back.

[JacMac]

you are completely correct. I knew when I crossed that line with a single look. I'd get that "If I have to say something to you, you won't be happy about it" look. I think I learned to do that look quite well back in the teaching days! I'm a bit out of practice now, although I use it to some degree with my four-legged children. Even they understand it!

[Madge]

Good to hear from you, JacMac!! I've missed you - ESPECIALLY in some of the NEWER posts..... anyway... glad you're back!!!

It's almost impossible, I feel to judge the way a child "turns out" by looking at their parents or their surroundings. People are people, they are genetically disposed sometimes to be who they end up being. I know parents who've always had the very best of intentions, the best upbringing and education and, despite doing what they thought was best, have children who have not done well. Look at the wonderful leaders we have and have had who have come from the most dismal of backgrounds, and have gone on to do wonderous things. It's the luck of the draw sometimes. I'm always very pleased to see a family that has done well and are very hapy with each other and their extensions. I've always thought that was what life was all about.

[Justawoman]

Yep, we can't overlook that fact Madge. You are so right about the parents that do care and try and yet Lil Johnny turns out wild as a March hare.

[Justawoman]

I found this on Netscape's newspage. I don't the parents and how they raise this child but it shows just how out of control everyone's tempers are these days. I would have been to afraid to throw such a fit at school. My mom would have dusted my behind when I got home.

WILLIAMSBURG, Va. (AP) - Police arrested an 8-year-old boy who allegedly had a violent outburst in school, head-butting his teacher and kicking an assistant principal, when he was told he couldn't go outside to play with other students.

The 4-foot pupil was led away from Rawls Byrd Elementary School in handcuffs Tuesday and charged with disorderly conduct and assault and battery.

[CuriousG]

Ah, the good old days where the sight of a good sized wooden spoon could snap a child's unruly behavior back in check...

[JacMac]

hey Madge! Thanks for the welcome! I've been busy busy with school, two jobs, an internship and starting my biz! Crazy!!! I do my best to check in with frappy and post as much as possible. I miss you guys when I'm not posting!

Anyways...I agree that children will grow to be who they are and sometimes their behavior is out of the realm of good parenting. But since this thread was a little negative (no offense I was venting too!) I thought I'd share a more positive story.

Here is the story of who she is:http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/OnlyinAmerica/story?id=531060&page=2

in case link disappears When Ashley was a toddler, her mom became ill. Susie was diagnosed with breast cancer.It was a fight that eventually ended Susie Tang's life.It seemed unimaginable — her father now had lung cancer. Ashley was only in seventh grade when she was told that her father had only one year to live.After a two-year battle, Ben Tang passed away. Ashley was only a freshman in high school.Despite living alone, Ashley continued to focus on her studies and remained a straight "A" student. And against all odds, Ashley was named valedictorian of her graduating class this year.Ashley got one more reason to smile when she joined "Good Morning America's" Diane Sawyer and Robin Roberts during their pre-Oscar broadcast at the Kodak Theatre in Los Angeles. After presenting Ashley with a dozen roses, the "GMA" hosts gave her another surprise when they told her she would be the show's special red-carpet correspondent for the Academy Awards show on Sunday night. Ashley will be getting the full fashion work-up for her Oscar gig as well, from hair and makeup to a designer dress fitting. And a Hollywood star has signed on to be Ashley's personal guide on the red carpet. Tune in to Monday's show for all the details of Ashley's special night.

and the after effect: http://www.azcentral.com/offbeat/articles/0301tang01.html

She returned to Glendale earlier in the day after a whirlwind tour of Hollywood, Beverly Hills and a night at the Oscars. Tang, 18, was subjected to the red-carpet treatment by famous clothing designers, makeup artists and hairdressers while meeting actress Jennifer Aniston. She was lent a $100,000 Japanese antique tiara and put on a gold dress from Saks Fifth Avenue.

Then she stood in the front door of the Kodak Theatre and watched movie stars make their Academy Awards entrance, managing to interview a few, including Hilary Swank.


I heard that watching "Friends" was one of the few times she laughed and when she was at the Salon she wanted her hair cut like Jennifer Aniston's. That's when Jennifer came in and met her. What a tear-jerkin' story, eh?

She was motivated enough, despite NO parents. I guess the character of a person has a bearing on the outcome despite the parental influence, but I do bet this girl had a positive parental experience in the years she had them with her.

Just thought I'd share.

[Madge]

That's just what I'm talking about. This poor kid could have taken the wrong track and blamed it on what had happened to her.

You sound busy, JacMac - but you sound content, too. Good for you!