Here's a TIP - STOP TIPPING!

[engineerf]

It's great that all of you millionaires have all this money to throw around on making yourselves look good by tipping. But the REST of us realize that everything has a price, and that price is typically written on the price tag.

So while you beleive your altruism shines through when you tip your mover, your gardener, your proctologist, your patholigist, your neighbour, your kids, your masuese, your monkey, your washer, your dryer, your house buyer, really it's your ignorance that leaves a glowing record.

Me, I like my money. I like to earn it, and keep it. I'm cheap, and I'm proud of it! :)

[theyeti]

Hi engineerf, I see you just now registered. What timing. :)

You have an interesting viewpoint, but I think you ought to know that we are not all millionaries here. :) Many if not most of us do not have a gardener, pathologist, masseuse, and I'm not sure about Alec on this ;) but we do not have pet monkeys either.

I'm interested as to why you think tipping is ignorant. Since you're on now, would you care to elaborate on how you came to that conclusion?

[engineerf]

Before I respond to your post. I require that you place $5 on the table as my tip for the previous post. Haven't you heard? It's the industry standard. Keep up with the times friend ;-)

[theyeti]

I couldn't find a cash smilie, so I'll have to include it in the check.

{check} {check} {check} {check} {check}

Now will you explain, please? :)

[kezzer]

Well, I too am no millionaire, don't have a gardener, masuese, etc. But I do tip waiters and waitresses. And on the holidays my postal service worker and my garbage and recycling man. Not because I am rich, but because I believe it is what respectable people do.
You may like your money, but if you did a job that people tipped wouldn't it just nip you in the U Know where to meet up with somoeone "cheap" much like yourself.

[jamesglewisf]

engineerf. LOL! You funny. Pretty soon they will start calling you engineerwigglefish.

Thanks for joining and posting.

The funny thing is that most of the people who depend upon tipping for income are low wage earners.

I'm guessing you've never had such a job. I worked in a restaurant for five years starting when I was 13. It is hard, mostly thankless, and low-paying work.

[Grimey]

OMIGOSH!!!

The jamesgwigglefish infection is spreading. RUN FOR THE HILLS!!!!!!

[theyeti]

{rolleyes}{toothy}

I can understand how the whole idea of tipping can be a pain in the rear sometimes, and maybe it isn't the best system to use. However, like jamesgwigglefish said, most of the people who depend upon tipping are low-wage earners. Suppose for instance, instead of tipping at Applebees (just an example), they raised the prices of every menu item by 20%. Two things would happen that I can think of:

1. People would see that everything costs more and would be less likely to go there (even though in reality they are paying about the same)
2. The nice friendly server who offers to refill my lemonade 4 times and helps clean up the ketchup I squirted all over myself now gets paid the same amount as the surly guy across the room who won't let someone order a burger without the onions.

[DeltaDawn]

Here's a story for ya.... We relocated in Sept. 2002 and the mailman for our neighborhood ignored us until around November/December when all of a sudden, he would walk all the mail to the door, welcomed us to the neighborhood at least a half dozen times, and asked the same dumb questions over and over regarding the former tenants. Until after Christmas. We didn't leave him a "gift" and since then, this particular mailman won't even look up if we come out to get the mail.

I don't have a problem with tipping in general, I just don't believe in tipping those who get paid for doing a particular service anyway, and am tired of those who continuously have their hand out for "tips" even though they already make top dollar for the services they provide. Tipping someone who makes $25/hr to do the very thing they expect to be tipped for seems greedy to me. I definately think the whole concept of tipping has been lost on a selfish society and now is way out of control.

[theyeti]

Yep. Things like that, the person shouldn't really be expecting a tip, but if he's a nice person, why not? But it shouldn't be the first thing on your mind.

A lot of tipping falls into the random acts of kindness category. Which is a good category to put yourself in on a consistent basis :)

[jamesglewisf]

I think your sample is too small.

One postman plus one home does not equal all postal workers are cheap scumbags who are only nice for a Christmas tip.

[DeltaDawn]

I agree. It just shocked me b/c I've never had anyone react in such a way. I thought he was just being nice, until after the holidays when I put it together. I've never tipped a mailman before, and truth be told, I don't ever intend to . They make more than I do, and quite frankly, I'd rather spend the money on making Christmas better for my own family than some stranger I only see once in a while when he has something for me to sign.

[Alec]

My postman drives a jeep around and sticks the mail in the mail box by the curb. If he walked down the street and put the mail in a slot on my front porch, I might consider tipping him, but I doubt it.

[Juan]

I agree with Engineerf. I think this tipping thing got out of hand.

There are a bunch of low income earners that don't get tipped. Workers who work in the Fast food restaurants are minimum wage workers and they don't get tipped. I think the service showed be included in the price that you are paying for the product or service. We live in a Capitalistic society and we can't have it both ways. Theyeti gave two examples, 1st people will stop going to establishments if prices went up. I think the reverse will happen. If you go to a restaurant and receive terrible service most likely you will not go back. Which in turn puts the management in the position to get better help and pay top servers more money. Which increases competition. Why do we have to pay 15-20 percent tip for bad service? Also, the average waiter/waitress can make $75-$150 a night in tips pre taxed. Thats $20,000-$40,000 a year pre-taxed. Teachers don't even make that. The average wage in the some states is $18,000. Also, I hate the fact the these extra charges skew the actual price. Example, a cell phone costs $19.99 a month, but when get the bill it ends up costing $30.00. You get an oil change now adays and pay $20 to change the oil and when you get the bill they charge you $3.00 disposal fee, $6.00 shop charges, $2.50 enviornmental fees, $2.00 administration fee. $3.00 lift charge, ect. That is why people are getting pissed at all these hidden cost. Just tell me how much it is and charge me that amount.

Just my two cents.

[s_ranke]

I would love to! Just tell me how much you would be willing to pay ( at least 20-30% more) above your average restaurant check price now, to issue the servers etc.. an adequate base pay. Then call your congressperson and tell them they're fired unless they deny the powerfull restaurant lobby in Washington D.C. Then try to go to your favorite restaurant and get the same service from your favorite server when they are making the same amount as a fast food window jockey to wait on you... You tell me where the soloution is...

[isis]

There are some things, I just won't tip for... But I read somewhere ( a magazine, I think) that you tip for exeptional service and when you want to recieve exeptional service. I travel, alot, sometimes for work, sometimes for fun...

This is what I've learned. Always, Always, Always be polite to anyone who is in the service industry! If they are rude or you recieve bad service, speak to their supervisor and explain why they will not recieve a tip.

Bellmen, housekeeping staff and valets- if you give them a tip the first time (a decent one) they will remember and you will get better service.

I'm not saying that you must tip, but if you know that you want top-notch service- be willing to pay for it. Budget tips into your plans... If you are going the "budget" route, then don't expect preferintial treatment over those of us who are willing to spend an extra couple of bucks to make our night out/weekend away/long stay smoother.

[Tracy]

I'm not sure that any of you know this....Server pay is $2.13/hr. This pay rate has not changes since I began waiting tables 13 years ago. How many times do you think minimum wage has increased in the past 13 years, or inflation, for that matter. If you don't want to tip, stay at home, cook your own food, and serve yourself!! I work hard for my $$$, as well and it depends on tips. In the end, my paycheck reads across the front "void, this is not a check" (O $'s in other words). So, ultimately, I depend on tips to pay my bills!!! the governmebnt ASSUMES that we, as servers, make at least 12% of our sales in tips. If we don't claim this, we are subject to a government audit!!!

[jamesglewisf]

Ditto.

[Sambam]

I just wanted to add the opinion of a waitress to this post. I have been working 70 hours a week at two different restaurants for the last four years to put myself through college. I am a hard worker who has earned every penny I've ever seen. At the end of the week, I recieve two paychecks totalling zero dollars because that $2.13/hr I earn goes directly to taxes. If I have a slow night or God forbid, get sick and can't go to work, my bills don't get paid. I don't get sick days and I don't get bonuses. I get harrassed by dirty old men, yelled at by picky old women, and spit on by annoying children. I go home everynight with sore feet and food-stained clothes. So, why don't I quit my job and find something easier?? Because I work hard and get paid for it. This is one of the few occupations where you truly earn what you deserve. I work with slackers who truly couldn't care less about their tables, and they make poor tips....and of course complain about it. I give my tables the best service possible, keep a smile on my face, and I get compensated for it. Servers who constantly complain about poor tippers are probably poor servers. Its not an easy job, and its not meant for most people. I have to judge every table I get, to estimate exactly what their needs are and then go out of my way to surpass their expectations. It is my job to make you feel comfortable, give you great food and drinks, and ensure that you have no responsibilities during your dinner. With that said, I think there are a few tips that I would like to state here for anyone who cares to hear them. First off, if your steak is cooked wrong, your pasta has a hair in it, or your wine tastes a little off, don't blame your server. We do not taste-test each dish that goes out, so we do not know what is underneath or inside your food. However, once notified, your sever should do everything within their power to fix the problem. If they blow off your complaint....they are not working hard enough for your tip. Second, servers are not dogs, horses, or pigs, therefor we should not have to respond to whistles, hoots, or hollers. A good server will be in their section continuously and will be walking by your table in a matter of moments, so there is no need to whistle at them from 10 feet away. If the server is not around, ask someone else, but don't automatically assume the server is slacking off. (They may have just burned their hand on a hot plate, had an irate customer at another table, or some other legitimate reason for neglecting you) However, if you see your server at the host stand talking on their cell phone for twenty minutes, you have reason to be frustrated. Also remember that your server is a person making a living. Many of the people I work with are single mothers trying to pay for their children's food. When they get sick, they can't afford to take a day off work, so they come in and try to look happy...some times its just not easy. My biggest suggestion is to make comments!!! If their is a comment card nearby FILL IT OUT!! If your food was gross but the server was awesome, say so! Managers are constantly walking through the restaurant (usually the nicely dressed person looking at each and every table). Tell them what you think of the place. If the server neglected you, tell the manager. Bad servers continue to be bad servers because management has no idea how bad they are. And good servers continue to get bad shifts because management doesn't realize they are capable of handling more tables. Share your thoughts, especially if they are positive. If a server has a table scream at her because their burger is undercooked, she will be discouraged and give poor service for the rest of the night. So let her know that she was very good to you and you appreciate her....the next table she waits on will thank you for it.

[jamesglewisf]

Thanks for posting.

[Madge]

Some really good posts here, and very interesting thoughts. I think I'm pretty much in the middle here. I ALWAYS tip a waitress/waiter. These people don't make a decent hourly wage, and tips are important to them. Some of these people go to school full time and just squeek by on their income. Some are single Moms who could really use the $$. My hairdresser, for instance owns the salon, and it's one of the pricier ones in the county. She charges a premium for her services, referring to herself as a "Master". No problem - she does a phenominal job, and it's my choice to go to her. I will not, however tip her. If someone ELSE at the salon were to do my hair, I'd tip them. The mailman does not get a tip; there are about 4 different people who share the route, and half the time I get someone else's mail. I DO NOT tip for poor service, especially when the person gets paid more than a fair wage and can't do his/her job correctly.

[Frappel]

"I'm not sure that any of you know this....Server pay is $2.13/hr. This pay rate has not changes since I began waiting tables 13 years ago. How many times do you think minimum wage has increased in the past 13 years, or inflation, for that matter. "

The reason the pay hasn't changed lies directly in the hands of those who tip. These people and only them are directly your problem. They will keep you at the same low pay for as long as they can. They are basically stealing the incentive for you to earn more. Instead of you being paid more the restaurant owner makes more money. And that's as simple as that.

As the US is becoming a 3rd world country there will be less tips, and the difference between the poor and the rich is only going to grow.

When I was working as a nanny many years ago the family that hired me, paid me the absolutely minimum which was a minimum wage. And I was taking care of their kids and clean their always filthy house. I could roll over in front of them and they would not give me a penny extra and yet they would go to the fancy restaurants and tip everyone around them. Talking about hipocrisy. They were wealthy, they had few businesses, hotels, and they paid their empolyees minimum wage as well. And if someone wanted a raise they fired the person and hired someone else.

I would like someone to explain to me, why people, like my former employers don't pay decent wages to their employees, people who are the closest to them yet they don't hesitate to tip strangers. We never even got Chirsmas bonuses.

And this is what you, generous tippers have created: the low class, who cannot possibly move beyond the absolutely minimum wage, and the high class that is absolutely enjoying it. It is your fault that people in service industry are making less money and the prices are going up at the same time. Only in America!

[SunshineLeith]

Actually . . . in Canada as well . . .

[Alec]

By law, the restaurant can only pay the minimum wage for tipped employees if the sum of the $2.13 plus tips is greater than or equal to minimum wage. So at a minimum, you should be making minimum wage.

After 13 years, you should be a really good waiter working at a better restaurant getting better tips. If that is still not good enough money, then it would be worthwhile to try to improve your education and find a different job.

On why people pay the minimum wage...that is what happens in a free market economy. If no one would work for that wage, then they would have to pay more to get employees.

Either your logic that is the generous tippers' fault is faulty, or you are being quite witty and sarcastic. I'm not sure which one.

Before you complain about being poor, I need to ask a few questions. These are all aimed at people over 18.

1. Do you own a computer? Do you have internet access? If not, from where are you accessing the internet?

2. Do you own a cell phone?

3. How many TVs do you own?

4. Do you have a VCR, DVD player or TiVo?

5. Do you own a microwave?

6. Do you own or lease one or more cars?

7. Do you live in a home or apartment?

8. How is your medical care paid for -- insurance or by yourself?

9. Do you eat out? Monthly, weekly, daily?

10. Do you buy coffee at Starbucks or one of its competitors?

11. Do you buy books or use your library card?

12. Do you own music CDs or an MP3 player?

13. Do you have any pets?

14. Do you have a land-line telephone? If so, how many?

15. How many pairs of shoes do you own?

16. Do you pay someone to mow your lawn?

17. Do you wash your own car or pay to have it washed?

18. Do you pay to have your children participate in sports?

19. Do you have a George Foreman grill?

20. Do you pay someone to cut your hair?

21. Do you pay someone to color or style your hair?

22. Do you wear makeup? If so, is it grocery store brand or department store brand?

23. Do you change your own car's oil or pay someone else to do it?

24. Do you repair your own car or pay someone else to do it?

25. How many times a month do you order out food (pizza, chinese, etc.)?

26. Do you (as an adult) live with any family members? Brothers, sisters, parents, uncles, aunts or grandparents?

27. Do you have a disposal in your kitchen sink?

28. Do you have an icemaker in your freezer or do you make cubes?

I could keep going, but I'm out of time. The point is that most of our supposedly poor in America are not really all that poor. We're just spoiled. The answers to a lot of those questions for our parents or grandparents was "no." They took care of their own cars, if they owned one. They didn't pay people to do what a lot of us pay people to do. They didn't own a lot of appliances. They lived with family members. And they thought they were blessed.

The poor in other countries don't have any of that stuff. We've been spoiled by technology and spoiled by our abundance. I can walk into a grocery store and choose from 10 varieties of apples. Even the worst grocery store in town gives me more than one variety of apple. In really poor countries, their are no apples, no grocery stores, and no money to by them if they were available. We're a bunch of whiners.

One last thing -- tip and tip well!!!!!

[raybeck]

Well put, Alec!!! I always tip well, if the service I receive is deserving of it, and I have to say, most of the time it is!!! (& man I feel really spoiled after reading that list of things...)!

[Frappel]

I could keep going, but I'm out of time. The point is that most of our supposedly poor in America are not really all that poor. We're just spoiled. The answers to a lot of those questions for our parents or grandparents was "no." They took care of their own cars, if they owned one. They didn't pay people to do what a lot of us pay people to do. They didn't own a lot of appliances. They lived with family members. And they thought they were blessed.

The poor in other countries don't have any of that stuff. We've been spoiled by technology and spoiled by our abundance. I can walk into a grocery store and choose from 10 varieties of apples. Even the worst grocery store in town gives me more than one variety of apple. In really poor countries, their are no apples, no grocery stores, and no money to by them if they were available. We're a bunch of whiners.

One last thing -- tip and tip well!!!!!

Gadgets, eh?

Do we own everything there is to own? Of course. But that's because Mr. Alan Greenspan is printing paper for us just to keep us happy. We'll still have to pay for the gadgets we own and we still are paying for the gadgets we used to own. And the story continues...

Let's compare our young American waiter to a German waiter and Chinese waiter. Our American kid owns everything but is in debt up to his ears. He makes minimum wage plus some extra, not enough though to support 100% of his needs (including his credit card debt).

The German kid is making 8Euro/hour plus tips. He is making good living on that and he doesn't buy on credit. He pays cash for everything he buys. He has more money to spend because he doesn't own a car, he uses the communication available in his city, he doesn't pay insurance, repairs, etc... so he has a lot more spendable income than our American kid.

The Chinese kid is definitely in the worst situation. He makes the least, $5/day plus tips. He cannot afford the gadgets his friends from Germany and America own but he is saving systematicaly and at the end he'll buy what he wants and it is going to be the best thing on the market. He might not own all the gadgets but everything will be paid for with cash. But is he really in the worst situation? Let's explore this subject a little.

This young Chinese man is not going to be waiter all his life. He might even get a degree and become an engineer. But he will never be uneployed or broke. And that's because his friends in America and Europe will make sure he has a job and a very good one. The German kid might stay a waiter for the rest of his life but at least he'll make enough to support himself. Our American kid however has the worst future of them all. He won't be able to support himself from the wages he is making and there will be no jobs for him left in this country. He is already in debt up to his ears, so he'll probably file for bankrupcy and be on welfare for the rest of his life.

So, when the Chinese guy comes here for a vacation he'll definitely drop some change in the can of our American panhandler and leave a big tip to our German kid when he visits Germany. After all a good tip is in order. He owes his life to the American and the German kid's parents. If it wouldn't be for them he wouldn't have such a good job and he wouldn't be able to travel etc... He might even one day give our losers a fairly good job.

Amen.

So, the next time you tip, think about the future of the young person you are tipping.

[Alec]

LOL! Go ahead and move to Germany. You will be among the 4.807 million unemployed there. The unemployment rate in Germany is 11.6%. The unemployment rate in the US is 5.1% for May. The economic growth rate in Germany is .4%. Here it is 3%.

[Alec]

You admitted that you have too many of the gadgets and that you bought them on credit. Well, guess what! You bought a bunch of stuff you didn't need, and now you are paying exhorbitant interest rates to pay for it. You could have skipped the credit and saved the money for things that would really benefit you.

Whom do you blame for your reckless financial habits? Alan Greenspan? Give me a break. Take responsiblity for your own decisions. Control your spending habits. Pay back your debt. And then start spending your money on things that will really improve your quality of life.

[Justawoman]

Nah Alec didn't you know that the Alan Greenspan is evil and brain washing our youth to spend, spend, spend? Plus they are not educated enough to read the terms and conditions to credit cards. Fine print? What is that? You mean there is writing on the back of my credit card contract? Oh wait a minute... contract? Is that legal and binding? Oh who cares I am young and stupid and will live forever....It's just money after all.


Okay I will stop being sarcastic. But it is this attitude that gets many a young adult in trouble with their finances. You can be more like the Chinese waiter/student. Save and buy with cash. Throw those credit card offers in the trash. What looks like a great deal today will eat your sack lunch down the line. Tell yourself no when you want to buy on impulse. Keep in mind your long term goals and save.

I can honestly say I have one daughter that gets the importance of money in the bank and bills paid. Then I have the one that is more flippant about her finances. How do you train an attitude?

[Frappel]

<<<You admitted that you have too many of the gadgets>>>

Hey, I am helping the economy. I deserve some recognition not critique. But... "A successful man is one who makes more money than his wife can spend. A successful woman is one who can find such a man". And I am that woman. So, I don't have problems spending, my bills are always paid.

How about this? The waiter smiled, kept our drinks full, serves our meal and wine, we are happy and enjoying the evening, etc... The waiter then deserves a tip. But let's say I am ordering the most expensive item on the menu, food and wine, the most expensive they have. Why then I cannot just leave $5 tip but I am expected to leave at least 15% of the food and drinks I have ordered? Did the waiter and the bartender had to perform some special ceremony while pouring my drink? Did they do anything different while serving me my meal? Did they have to walk longer distance because of the price tag? The answer is no. They served me just like they served cheap steaks and cheap wines. And that doesn't mean I am not happy with the service the waiter provided. I am happy and I am still leaving a $5 tip. And if we are to tip based on service recieved then the $5 tip is a very appropriate tip. Isn't it? Or maybe if it's not the expected 15% then I shouldn't come at all?
Perhaps some manager, not a waiter would kindly expressed his/her opinion on this subject.

[Gourmetmisse]

I am not in the industry..but this is my practise....
I will tip between 15-25% when I am satisfied with the service. If I am not satisfied I will tip only 10%. It is really nasty to leave nothing, then you just look like the jerk.
You should not be dining out if you are not willing to fork over the tip.
We do not dine out often due to many reasons, one of them is we live within our means and not on credit.

[jamesglewisf]

The point of etiquette is knowing how to behave in particular situations. In the US, the proper tipping etiquette is 15%+ at a restaurant. That is how waitstaff is compensated in the US. If people don't like it, they need to get over it.

You might think it is OK to go into restaurants shirtless, but this is not considered proper etiquette either. Is it morally wrong? No, but it is how people are expected to behave in the US. If you don't like it, you can eat at home shirtless.

Tipping is the way it works now.

[ladybug56]

Ditto {toothy}

[betsidee]

Thanks for the great comment!!Can i wait on you sometime?

[pack momma]

This may be etiquette, but sounds more like vent your spleen. lol

Every time my parents join us at a restaurant, she starts her rant about how these people (employers) can get away with paying their people so much less than minimum wage, thereby forcing them to depend on tips. Expecially when tips are supposed to be an expression of appreciation for good service.
Though I wholeheartedly agree with her reasoning, since none of us make the rules, I just tell her that's the way it is so handle it. If you're going to eat out, be prepared to pay. Of course one the other hand, if everyone went on a boycott of tipping unless for exceptional service, how many people would continue to work as servers, buspersons, etc. thereby forcing employers to pay properly. But since it is doubtful that will ever happen, its just the way it is.

I like keeping my own money too, but the restaurant thing is a choice I make. Where my gripe really is, is the other ways businesses use to rip us off of our hard earned $$$ Ex. restocking charges for faulty items returned, refusing to refund your money for faulty items, either giving you a store credit MINUS the sales tax, (who gets that for something you didn't buy???)
I'm not going on.... that list is endless.

Oh yes, I am far from rich (though I do have a few "toys") but I don't ever feel the need to follow the lead of the rich and wannabe famous who just throw their money around to feel important.. I tip well for good service, less for mediocore service and slightly substandard for lousy service in restaurants along with a note on why. I choose whether to pay the valet or park my own car, carry my bags or allow someone else to do it. etc. and I never pay a tip for something that is overpriced in the first place like the $3 coffee I treat myself to once in a while but have to wait and wait in line for.

[mfmmurphy]

Okay, my opinion on all this is.... If a person goes above and beyond the service they are providing to you, then by all means, I tip. Mainly because its my way of thanking them for being so helpful or kind. Often times, I find that people don't go above and beyond what's expected of them, and they just do the mininimum thats requried. I do sympathize with these people who make little income, but if they put a little more effort into their job, I'm sure it wouldn't be long before someone recognized their efforts and dedication, including their customers or clients who are usually more willing and gracious with tipping.

What comes around goes around. If the service is poor, I rarely go out of my way to tip or to tip good. If the service is FANTASTIC, then I'm more than willing to show my appreciation with a generous tip.
Just my opinion... for whatever thats worth. :)

[Grimey]

I think jamesglewisf's advice for poor service is to talk to the manager instead of not tippping. It might be that the server was just having a bad day. If you just tip low, then the server probably won't learn anything. The manager can't manage if he doesn't know what is wrong.

[roxy77]

Alec - You're right some servers, bartenders, etc. are making loads of cash, but you should read "Nickel & Dimed". A reporter spends a few months working at a Walmart, a diner, and a Merry Maids (I think- it's been a while) to see if it's really possible to live on those wages/tips. She found that she couldn't do it without support of some kind and that most of her co-workers were homeless or living in trailers or with family. Also, while gadgets have come into easy reach for many, childcare and healthcare has not. I worked in restaurants for 12 years, doing pretty much everything and in my experience, most servers can not afford insurance (it's generally not provided and as an individual you can expect to pay $300 a month easy) and pretty much go without healthcare. I don't anybody who had paid childcare, in fact, lots of smart people end up in the service industry because they can work at night when it is easier for spouses or family members to watch their children. Just saying- it's not so black & white. That being said, tipping is totally personal and not required. I've been tipped everywhere from zippo to 100 bucks on a round of drinks. That's the way it goes.

Frappel- If you want to be a high roller, you can't have it both ways. If you're ordering the most expensive items on the menu then your waiter or bartender likely is doing extra work and you should be able to afford a respectable tip. For instance, an expensive bottle of wine is usually fetched from a locked place that may be a few flights of stairs away, you might get crystal glasses that must be hand washed and polished, and your server will spend extra time presenting the bottle, waiting for your approval, removing the cork, possibly decanting, pouring a sip to you (or whomever ordered the wine), filling the glasses of the other guests, clockwise, ladies first before returning to your glass to be filled. He/she will put the wine on the table on a coaster or if it's white they've filled a chiller with ice. They'll have to keep an eye on your glasses so that they can reach the bottle before any of your guests for refills, apprise you when the bottle is empty without interupting or annoying you, and he'll have had to make sure that there are plenty of remaining bottles of your selection in case you'll want more. At a decent restaurant, he most likely comes in early or on his day off so that he can learn about the wine and make educated suggestions for pairing with your entree selections. If you order cavier, he'll be getting ice and special utensils; oysters require freshly ladled condiments, shaved ice, utensils, cut lemon, and moist linens. A decent waiter is happy to do this, but while he's spending all this time with you, he can't be waiting on other tables so he's relying on you to tip accordingly. Also, he's probably splitting that tip with 1 or 2 backwaiters and giving a portion to the bartender, sommellier and/or maitre'd. The $5 you tipped at the pizza place (at least I hope that's where you're tipping $5) probably went to a single server who didn't have to spend that much time with you.

I think the reason it's our custom to pay servers $2 an hour is that service is such a variable and subjective good. The customer would have to pay for his waiter's services either way, but in America, the customer gets to directly motivate the server to provide excellent service. It's a tough job and it would be exceedingly difficult to find capable servers without that incentive.

[Radu]

I think the member that started this thread had a good point, but just took it a little too extreme.

I don't think I've ever made a post in this forum because a lot of it is kinda silly. A lot of the threads make it seem like it's expected to tip your garbage man, your mailman, the pizza man, every babysitter, the lady who walks your dogs, and anybody else that you're already paying.

I understand that if they do an extrordinary job, a tip would be a good bonus, but I hope that it never gets to the point that you're looked down upon or considered rude for not tipping. Not tipping a waiter/waitress is already considered a strong insult in our culture (mainly because it's assumed part of the meal price). I don't want other tokens of gratitude to be taken for granted. It turns the happy surprise of receiving a tip into the disapointment of not receiving a larger tip.

It just creates more hidden prices with every service you receive. (Nobody talks of it, but everybody expects it)

[Justawoman]

I think the member that started this thread had a good point, but just took it a little too extreme.

I don't think I've ever made a post in this forum because a lot of it is kinda silly. A lot of the threads make it seem like it's expected to tip your garbage man, your mailman, the pizza man, every babysitter, the lady who walks your dogs, and anybody else that you're already paying.

I understand that if they do an extrordinary job, a tip would be a good bonus, but I hope that it never gets to the point that you're looked down upon or considered rude for not tipping. Not tipping a waiter/waitress is already considered a strong insult in our culture (mainly because it's assumed part of the meal price). I don't want other tokens of gratitude to be taken for granted. It turns the happy surprise of receiving a tip into the disapointment of not receiving a larger tip.

It just creates more hidden prices with every service you receive. (Nobody talks of it, but everybody expects it)

Very well put Radu. I have yet to find a tip waiting for me when I clean someone's house or business. I would be shocked to find that plus what they pay me. I don't expect it and would probably tell them it is not necessary should I find a tip left for me. There are some service end jobs that don't require tipping.

[carla]

Well, I too am no millionaire, don't have a gardener, masuese, etc. But I do tip waiters and waitresses. And on the holidays my postal service worker and my garbage and recycling man. Not because I am rich, but because I believe it is what respectable people do.
You may like your money, but if you did a job that people tipped wouldn't it just nip you in the U Know where to meet up with somoeone "cheap" much like yourself.



I have a question.Are you required by law to pay a gratuity charge that is automatically added to your bill? Carla

[carla]

Is it required by law that you pay a gratuity that is automatically added to your bill or can you refuse and give what you like?

[jamesglewisf]

I can't tell you anything about the law.

If it said on the menu or was posted on the front door or on the hostess stand, then you need to pay it. Otherwise, it is up for debate. You can always talk to the manager about it, just be polite.

How big was your party? Many restaurants do it automatically if the party is 5 or more people.

[Shelly7997]

It really disturbs me when people think that not tipping is appropriate. Ok, if you happen to have the meanest worst waiter/waitress EVER...fine, don't tip. If your food wasn't up to par...not tipping is NOT the answer. Your server did not prepare the food. If there is a probelm with the food you need to take it up with the management. Most servers in the USA make $2.83 an hour so they live off of their tips. It would be nice if tipping was a choice like some European countries that pay servers a typical salary, but we don't. So, unless you plan on moving to Europe...you need to tip. If you are going out for a sit down meal, in which someone waits on you, you need to tip. They have provided you a service. Don't go out if you can't afford to tip. The worst is when a group of people go out, orders themselves big juicy steaks, nice plump baked potatos, magaritas, appetizers and dessert...racking up a healthy $200 meal and then doesn't tip, just because they don't feel they should have to tip. Nothing was wrong with the meal, the waiter was great, they had a great time...they just don't believe in tipping...what a crock...next time cook your food at home and save the server that hour and a half of running their butts off waiting on your fat butt getting ketchup (which you shouldn't be putting on a steak in the first place), napkins, water and what ever else you wanted at the time! I think that everyone should have to wait table for at least 6 months, it should be a high school requirement. Then there would be more of an appreciation for the service industry. Unfortunately, the drawback to being in the service industry for too long is a growing hatred toward the general public. How sad, I used to a "people person"

[Grimey]

Most people here don't disagree with you.

I've got some bad news, however. No matter what industry you are in you are going to deal with jerks. You can either let it make you jaded or recognize that all of us at some point probably do things that annoy other people. Enjoy the people that are nice and take pride in doing a good job regardless of how you are treated. That's the key to enjoying your job.

[rdrr]

If I am king, I will make tipping illegal. Everbody works, some people work lousy jobs and they do not get tips. Pooper scooper, Trash picker, Toilet bowl cleaner. They should be the people getting tips.

If I am king, the only people who are allowed to get tips are strippers and hookers work for it.

Silence!

If I am king, they should be sending those tips to me.

RDRR

[Grimey]

If you were king, you would pay a publicist to write your posts so that your grammar, punctuation, and spelling wouldn't be so poor.

[Twig85]

Well, let's all be thankful you are NOT king.

Okay, we have to face it. Tipping is established in the U.S. whether people want it htere or not. I'm sorry, but that is the only REAL way servers are making their money-and people are screwing them over.

Alright, look. Let me give an example. This may help a few people out who are truly clueless to how "we" make our money. Yes, I am a server.

On a Saturday, I will work a double shift-AM and PM- which results in about 10 hrs on the floor with tables, and an extra 2 or more taking care of closing tasks. Yes, I don't just wait on you, I also have other stuff to do when I'm done...and I only make $2.13 an hr.

We are EXPECTED to make at least 15% or more on every tip. Okay, you might say...but look at this. I don't get to keep all my tips. A percentage will go to the credit card companies for using their credit card (I love you cash wielders!) and then comes the other people. For them I tip out from my sales- in other words, it doesn't matter to the company how many tips I get. If I sold $1000 worth of food/drink/other all day, that's what I have to look at to tip other workers! Here it goes: Busboys- 2%, Bartender- 1%, Expo- 1%. Doesn't look like much does it...well that adds up to almost $40 of MY tips going to them.

I should still have at least $150 to start with at least, and then $110 to walk out with. Do I get this? No, not really. I am not a bad server. I pride in how much I put myself out there to give everyone a good, enjoyable time. However, I have to look at the fact a LOT of people do not know how to tip, or just plain don't care.

Have a heart! Waiters should be getting 15%-20% mostly. 10% for bad service, and then speak to a manager, or at least let us know what we did wrong before you stiff us. I try my best to keep a smile on my face, and a cheerful disposition when I get $3 on a $100 tab...but it's hard. I need to make my bills too.

[Grimey]

Amen. Well said.

I never thought about the credit card bit. Thanks for the info.

Stick around and post some more!

[Grimey]

I think you'll find that most people here are in favor of tipping. It is just the drive-by posters that are not.

[ChristyPosting]

I liked Twig85's comments and most of the other posts provide some great discussion on tipping. Here's what I have to say:

Tipping - Where does it end (or begin)? Who and how much? My mailman, haircutter, WalMart stock person, service station attendant, local government workers (police, fire, engineering, snow plow drivers), of course the waiter/waitress, and who else? Yes, I realize and understand that the commercializing of our society has standardized and tells us 15 to 20% but swallowing that pill is just as logical as my local landscaper telling me to tip his employees because he is too cheap to pay them himself. Unfortunately most people have said "Oh, OK, I guess I will pay them too", which is exactly why wait(er/esses) make $2.50 an hour. Because for the most part society has swallowed that pill. Is it a good pill or a bad one?

This "pill" does have it's advantages. If we were to say "NO MORE TIPPING" the salaries would go up and those salaries would be included in the price of the steak you just ordered. So, no more $20 meals, they are now $24 (20% increase for you mathematically challenged) per meal. Now this means, the waiter/waitress has no motivation to do an extra good job. Although, every employee should always be doing their best job, sometimes a little token or tip is needed to motivate the employee for great service. Without tipping, I doubt managers would be encouraging their servers to do extra great jobs, as that would increase returning customers, to make more indirect work for managers. I suspect the "lets all just do our job" message would be conveyed and managers would seat 200 guests for the evening instead of 250. The restaurant would show a profit of $2000 for the evening instead of $2500 but does the manager care, probably not as they are salary. So tipping can be a good thing if it is understood what a tip represents.

The disadvantage is that most assume they are entitled to a tip just because they are in that profession. I had a server waddle herself out to my truck and glared at me when I only included a $1.50 tip with the $15 curbside pickup order. The next time I left nothing as it was the same person. I have also had pizza delivery people question why I am only tipping them $5 when I am 5 blocks away and the pizza came an hour later. I also have friends who pull out their "tip card" when the check comes when the services is horrible and intend to leave the "bottom end of the range" which they feel is 15%. I of course ask them what they are thinking and sometimes they will only leave 10%.

Now when those in the tipping profession announce "thank you for tipping with cash so I dont have to claim it as income", I would like to say to them, dont drive on our roads, keep your kids out of the schools, dont expect to have your road plowed, dont expect to have a police officer show up when you need one, etc. I have other friends who claim that they have made $300 in one night serving or tending from 7pm to 1am. And since I know they have no intentions of claiming it as income, this equates to $70 per hour pretax. Oh yes, they ran all night and worked really hard, but this sounds like my local UPS guy, and I think he makes quite a bit less than $70 per hour.

Maybe we should all go to a tip system, and everyone should be motivated to do their job. A base rate of $2.50 per hour and if I dont run to the curb at 4am when the snow plow is going by, I can expect a little paint to be scraped off the side of my car because I didnt motivate him. Or maybe I could wave a $50 at the police officer to make sure he shoots the thief instead of me when I am being ripped off.

The best one I have is: A buddy of mine and I were at the Mall of America having a few beers on a Saturday night at 9pm. The place was full and the cow troughs were full of ice and bottles of beer. At each trough was a girl in a bikini standing there reaching down into the ice and retrieving the bottles, opening them and collecting $4.25 each. As he got 2 beers for us, he handed her a $10 and she took the $1.50 and tossed it into her tip bucket which had well over $300 in it (at 9pm!!!!!!). He looked at her and asked for his change. She looked at him as if he were an idiot, reached down into the pail and handed him $1. He said "errrr, it was $1.50". She reached into the bucket and got the 50cents and told him not to come back. We had our laugh, and didnt plan on coming back anytime soon, so didnt waste our time contacting management. Anyhow, it is this kind of being owed or entitled to tips perception that ruins it for those who genuinely earn it.

So with the big mix of who to tip and how much, this is what I do. Whatever I feel is deserved. If my mailman gets my mail in the box all year long and not in the neighbors, then I dont call the postmaster to complain. He has done his job. If he brings a package and puts it in my porch as he knows I hate having to run down to the post office to sign for a package, then he gets a nice tip at the end of the year. If I go to a restaurant and the waitperson does a poor job, I leave $3 with no explanation (you need to be smart enough to know that you need to improve, I dont need to tell your manager that you are a poor server, I am there to enjoy myself not do the managers job, and if you ARE including ALL of your tips as INCOME you and your manager should see that you are consistently making less than the other waiters), if you do a good job you get 10 to 15%, if you do a great job, you get 15% or maybe a little more, but I will also call your manager and tell them what a great job you have done. I write down your name, the date and time, and the meal(s) ordered. I have done this several times, and not only at restraurants but any place of business where an employee really goes out of their way. For absolutely excellent service, I have contacted Walmart corporate for associates who have gone out of their way, I have called Macaroni Grill home office, and many many others. I have also used the "contact us" webpage to let those in upper management know. A recognition is worth so much more than an extra 5%. This started when I was 18 and it was 30 degrees below zero outside and my car wouldnt start. I was a JCPenneys and an employee helped my jumpstart my car. I wrote a letter of thanks and sent it to the local paper. Basically, saying it is employees like this who make your business as great as it is. About a year later, I ran into that employee at a wedding dance. They said that was the coolest thing anyone ever did for them and were very appreciative. This made me realize that spending a half hour to recognize outstanding efforts is appreciated and leads to better service and hopefully a better society.

With that said, I recommend: Those tipping need to be informed on your tipping etiquette. Most of us know that the waitress doesnt burn the steak or make bad tasting meals, but even with that, I wont tip well on the best service when the meal or product itself is poor. Just because I get a smile with my plate of burnt meat, doesnt mean I should tip well. The job of waiter/waitress is to be aware of this, have team meetings with staff, and no longer employ the bad employees. Good tips come from a collectively good service and product. For those recieving tips, do your best and if you only get $1, do better next time. Maybe grandma doesnt understand the tipping dynamic, but dont hold it against her. You should have done a good job and in her world this is what it is worth. Then next time when I come along and you do a great job, I will make the call to corporporate and let them know that it is employees like you that will make me return to their establishment. Believe me, I have received calls back from home offices and corporate offices, in response to letters I have sent, and those employees have been rewarded. If nothing else, their jobs werent on the chopping block when it came to downsizing.

In summary, we all need to do better. As customers and employees we all have room for improvement. If you are a perpertual complainer and dont see the need to always improve, you are going to be left in the dust. Good luck to all and happy tipping (or should I say "appropriate tipping").

[Grimey]

The only error in your post is that the waiter does not get to hide cash tips from the IRS. The restaurant reports 12% of the gross receipts to the IRS as income for the waiter whether the waiter actually earned 12% in tips or not.

[ChristyPosting]

Thanks for agreeing that I only have one error. Not bad for such a long winded post. As for the one error that I do have, I should have clarified that a percentage of sales in automatically assumed and applied for the purposes of taxes, BUT in some establishments, I know that sales of the waiters and waitresses are not kept track of, and 100% of the tips does go into their pockets. All of the sales are rung directly to the register without employee association.

As for the establishments which do keep track of individual sales per server, any amount tipped in excess of 12% is cash in pocket. 15 to 20% is the "standard" which 3 to 8% is tax free. The 12% may be more or less depending upon the state you live.

Minnesota does not recognize TIP CREDIT, so tipped employees must be paid a cash wage of at least the respective minimum wage rate. However, on August 1, 2005, the “training wage “ rate increased from $4.25 to $4.90 per hour.

In Oregon, effective January 1, 2006, the state minimum wage rate increases from $7.25 to $7.50 per hour. The same rate applies to tipped employees because the state does not allow employers to take a credit for a portion of the tips received by the employee. Therefore, the minimum cash wage for tipped employees will be the same as for other employees ($7.50 per hour).

In Washington, beginning January 1, 2006, the state minimum wage rate increases 28 cents, from $7.35 to $7.63 per hour. The same rate applies to tipped employees because the state does not allow employers to take a credit for a portion of the tips received by the employee. Therefore, the minimum cash wage for tipped employees will be the same as that for other employees ($7.63 per hour).

[Grimey]

I bet that the IRS chose 12% because it is a good average. Not everyone tips 15-20% as you can read from so many of the posts griping about it here.

Most waiters that post who are complaining about the IRS reporting do so because they are reported at 12% and don't always earn that.

There is an interesting website that has an ongoing debate about waiter tipping - http://www.restaurantreport.com/Greatdebates/tipping.html.

[jamesglewisf]

They passed a law change for states that affects me. Texas has a sales tax. You can either add up all the sales tax for your receipts for a deduction or look up a number in a table based upon your income to calculate a deduction. They came out almost identical for me. The same was true for a co-worker. 12% might be the right number on average.

[cbadsweetie]

I am a server at TGI Fridays and some people dont understand why they should tip. I have a few examples...Lets just say you were to come in and eat and your bill was $70, if you didnt leave me a tip then I would basically be paying for you to come and eat, I have to claim a certain percent of my tips at the end of the night.. and its not that rare that I claim more than I make at the end of my shift, If I have $1000 in sales at the end of the night, and I only made $75 in tips, I will be taxed on $90. So I am being taxed on $15 that I didnt even make. Its not fair, I have no problem paying my taxes, everybody has to do it, but I dont think we should have to be taxed on something that is a persons decision to give me they are not obligated it is not added to their bill, nobody really has to tip you know, if everybody stopped tipping then we would be claiming money that we didnt even make, and since we claim all of those tips our paychecks are low,I can work 8 hours days 5 days a week and my paycheck wont ever be more than $200 every two weeks. I bet you are thinking the majority of people do tip, but actually ever since the gas prices have been getting higher and higher not as much people are tipping and the ones who are, are not tipping anywhere close to 15%. and we will be taxes on 8% of our sales on their bill. Like I said before I have no problem paying taxes on my hourly paycheck but if you are going to tax us on our tips then you should be taxing everyone else that makes tips, and everywhere that has a tip jar on the counter of their store. I am not really serious about that, but Im just trying to make a point that we really dont make as much as you think. Yea we make more than minimum wage, but most jobs do. Before I go one last example. Last night I work from 5pm-1am and 8 people didnt tip at all or left a tip under 10%. That doesnt mean I am a bad server, it wasnt even busy, and I have enough experience to know what I am doing... even if the table liked me that doesnt mean they have the money to give me a really good tip... and just to show that I am not a bad server, 4 other people I was working with said they were getting bad tips all night also... 3 out of those 8 left me nothing on a bill $30-$60. 2 left me $2 on a $50 bill. and the other 3 left me close to nothing, and at the end of the night my sales were $850 and I had to claim about $80 when I only made $70, so I got taxed on $10 that I didnt even make... I dont think thats fair..

[MisterMark]

I love it. Some people are stupid enough to take a job that pays less than minimum wage, and then you want to berate customers who don't give you the tip you think you deserve? Hogwash!

Tipping should be outlawed.

Not only should everyone stop tipping, service workers should push management for better wages. It's the businesses who really want to keep tipping alive because it means more money in their pockets, and less for their employees, and less for their customers.

[cbadsweetie]

Stop going to restaurants, then the restaurants will lose money. Then you don't have to tip the servers because they of course don't deserve it. Then you won't lose money from tipping. It that easy. So all the poeple that are too cheap to tip the servers that are working for YOU at restaurants then don't come, beleive me you won't be missed!
And just one more thing...
If the servers pushed to make more money hourly and they outlawed tips, then how much more do you think your meal is going to cost.. If they have to pay the servers more money, then the food prices will go up.. Then people will be complaining about that. In the end you will probably be paying more or about the same if you just paid for a regular meal and tipped the server. I understand that gas prices are going up and things are becoming more expensive so of course I dont expect a big tip from every table... But the people that are just too cheap to tip are stupid because we dont have to serve you and cook your food so you dont have to, and bring you clean plates so you dont have to do dishes, and we pick up after you, and re-fill your drinks so you dont have to get up..... And much much more.. If you dont want to be served then dont come to restaurants. That will solve all the problems.

[Justawoman]

Thankfully not everyone agrees with MisterMark. I doubt many folks stop and actually think about how much a meal is going to cost should the whole wage paying structure stop.

[mary]

Finally,,
Someone else who realizes tipping is ridiculous unless you really want to do it for someone who went out of their way to help you.
Lets say you go to a restaurant and have a meal for 30.00 and spend an hour there talking. Now, 20% would be 6.00,,,,next table over gets more exspensive food ,,spending 60.00 and spends the same hour there. There 20% would be 12.00 . does that make sense? you spend the same hour, have the same amount of drinks, the same plates and still have to bring the food, however you just happened to buy more exspensive food then the others, yet you are expected to pay twice as much for the same service,,,,its the SAME service you just paid for different food! that is crazy!

Also, the waiter can wait on several tables at once and they end up making way way more then i do working on my government job. no way! why should they make that much in an hour,,,just because years ago someone started the tipping thing?

But like someone else said,,,you go to mcdonalds and they work just as hard,,and no one tips them. they may not bring you your food,,but they are cleaning out milkshake machines and mopping floors ,etc..where as the waitress just brings your food.

and as far as tipping everyone else,,its gotten way out of hand..so many people that get paid for doing their work,,and make more then me,,expect to be tipped to do their job.

i vote that everyone stops tipping all but those who dont get paid right,,like waiters,,,but even with the waiters,,just leave a couple dollars to add to their pay,,not to make them richer then you are yourself. And not based upon the price of the food that you buy,,,but maybe by how much time you spend there,,,if you dawdle and talk and spend hour and half,,you take away from the money they can make from others,,,,,but if they are waiting on 5 tables at a time,,and each table leaves them 20% ,,they could make 30.00 just in tips for an hour,,,WOW that is so much more then what most make?

[jamesglewisf]

It sure seems like people who don't like tipping are motivated by covetousness. We don't want other people making more than we make. I thought we were supposed to want for others what we would want for ourselves. It's the golden rule.

And BTW, the average waiter doesn't make that much money. Your implication is that they make $30 an hour. If they worked 2,000 hours in a year, they would make $60,000. Here is reality:
In May 2004, median hourly earnings (including tips) of waiters and waitresses were $6.75. The middle 50 percent earned between $6.04 and $8.34. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $5.60, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $11.27 an hour. For most waiters and waitresses, higher earnings are primarily the result of receiving more in tips rather than higher hourly wages. Tips usually average between 10 and 20 percent of guests’ checks; waiters and waitresses working in busy, expensive restaurants earn the most.

http://www.collegegrad.com/careers/servi05.shtml

Even if you are in the highest ten percent and make $12 a hour, you still only make $24,000 a year. I'll guarantee you that the top 10% in civil service make more than $24,000 a year.

Even City Bus Drivers make more than waiters:
Median hourly earnings of transit and intercity bus drivers were $14.30 in May 2004. The middle 50 percent earned between $10.74 and $19.31 an hour. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $8.66, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $23.53 an hour.
http://www.collegegrad.com/careers/trans04.shtml

How about a building inspector?
Median annual earnings of construction and building inspectors were $43,670 in May 2004. The middle 50 percent earned between $34,620 and $54,970. The lowest 10 percent earned less than $27,760, and the highest 10 percent earned more than $67,380.
http://www.collegegrad.com/careers/const06.shtml
Here is a list with more civil service careers:
Table 4. Median annual salary for selected executive and managerial occupations in local government, 2002 Occupation Salary

City manager $85,000
Assistant chief administrative officer 74,486
Engineer 70,011
Chief financial officer 67,688
Information services director 67,248
Chief administrative officer 66,950
Fire chief 64,141
Economic development director 63,847
Chief law enforcement official 62,005
Human resources director 61,156
Public works director 60,570
Parks and recreation director 56,000
Human services director 55,684
Health officer 55,209
Purchasing director 52,728
Chief librarian 48,000
Treasurer 46,200
Clerk 44,071
Chief elected officials 11,300
http://www.collegegrad.com/industries/gover02.shtml

Even the median income for a clerk is 84% higher than the top 10 percentile for waiters. It is more than 3 times higher than the median income for waiters, including tips.

[mary]

I'm sorry,,but your reply to my post doesnt really pertain as far as Im concerned,,although its interesting to read.
I certainly wasnt talking of the high paid civil service workers,,,these days its hard to get the full time slot,,I am part time as well as my coworkers, this saves the government money.

I dont oppose tipping simply because they would make more then me,,I just dont think it makes sense. Regardless of what I make,,its crazy to spend 60.00 to eat and be expected to leave maybe a 12.00 tip. They bring you your food,,they might refill your drink and clean it up. But as I said,,they can wait on several table at once and this adds up.

I dont care what that website you posted listed,,,that is facts someone got from some part of the country,,but I have been around in the air force,,and have talked to way to many people who get tipped and rake it in.

I know people who have quit their good jobs to work at the casino here,,because they say they can make 300.00 in a weekend just in tips.

Its hard enough to be able to afford to go out and eat,,but they will be waiting until the cows come home before I would leave anyone a 12.00 tip. the minimum wage is what? not sure, but i would say 6 something? so they would be getting almost double min. wage just from my table? does that make sense? add to that the low fee they get from the restaurant,,and the tips from other tables and they are making way way more then min wage.

[jamesglewisf]

The way we compensate waitstaff in the US is dependent upon tips. If you don't like tipping people, then don't go out to eat. If you are going to go out to eat, you need to accept the fact that in the US, the cost of your meal plus good service includes a 15% tip. The meal doesn't cost $60. It costs $69. If you think it is too expensive, then you need to eat at cheaper restaurants, eat at home, or eat at a restaurant that doesn't use waitstaff.

Your deciding to just stiff the waiter because you don't like how they are compensated is blatantly unfair. If tommorrow we changed to a non-tipping society, then your meal would just start costing $69. You either pay the server directly through a tip or indirectly through increased food prices because the restaurant is paying them higher wages.

You should at least tell the waitstaff up front of your intent not to follow proper tipping etiquette. That way they have the opportunity to decide whether or not to serve you. To stiff them after they have served you well breaks your end of the customary deal. Eating a meal with good service and refusing to tip properly because you don't like tipping is really just bad faith and deception unless you tell the waitstaff up front of your intent. They wait on you with the exptectation of being compensated. If you never intended to compensate them in the expected manner, then you aren't being fair. In my opinion, it is the equivalent of breaking a contract or stealing (withholding wages).

[Justawoman]

I have a question and yes it may have been covered before but going to ask again.

When gratuity is added to your ticket do you still tip at the table?

[jamesglewisf]

Nope. The gratuity is the tip. They mean the same thing.

The only time you would is if you really got great service and wanted to tip more than what they wrote in. I always tell the server that they can write in the standard tip for a large party, but it probably won't be as generous as what I would write in.

[Justawoman]

Thanks Jim. We had this discussion with a daughter who just got back from a school trip. Their sponsor made a big deal about making for sure that the group knew to tip at this really nice restuarant she took them too. Our daughter, like her father, examed the ticket they were given and noticed gratuity was added to the bill. So the small table of teens opted not to leave an extra tip since mainly they were ignored and ended up having two waiters. The choir teacher/sponsor was like livid because they didn't leave money at the table. Kudos to our daughter for knowing the right thing to do.

[jamesglewisf]

Did the sponsor know that the gratuity was included? If it was somewhere between 15% and 20%, then it was covered.

http://www.answers.com/tip

Tip: A small sum of money given to someone for performing a service; a gratuity.

[Justawoman]

Apparently she didn't know. Our daughter always sees me and her father tip generously. We just always have. He analyzes the ticket and I just say tip. (if the service was worth a good tip) Our daughter said they were basically ignored and finally another waiter picked up their table just as the meal was ending and suddenly seemed concerned about their drinks.

I am guessing it was because they were a table of 4 teen women. Our daughter that is a waitress in the summer months has made the comment that teens don't tip at all usually. Well that is profiling. We have taught our kids to tip and tip well for good service.

[mary]

I totally disagree. I understand they get paid low wages,,but what about the other part of it? If I was the ONLY table they were waiting on, then maybe. However, they can wait on several tables at a time, and if they get a 20% tip of 12.00 of a 60.00 tab from me, and the same from 2 other tables, then they are making way more then most people I know.

I dont think the restaurant would raise the prices to cover quite that much. I will leave about 5.00 if I go and that is quite sufficient , considering all the waiter did was ask me what I want to eat, bring my food to me, and maybe get me a refill of a drink,,,then possible they or the busboy clean up the table.

[Justawoman]

All I can say is walk a day in a food service worker's shoes. Then tell me you wouldn't appreciate those folks who tip.

[Morci Prixon]

I work in a resteraunt, & I remember talking about this subject with my boss once.

It's not that they're trying to cheat you out of your money. Employees that depend on tips usually get paid less than minimum wage. They depend on tips for the majority of their income. Take a resteraunt for instance, if employers payed each of their employees higher wages- the cost of the food items on the menu would have to be raised much higher! If you think about it that way, it's actually cheaper to tip than the alternative. Plus, it's just common courtesey. That's all. :D

[mary]

I'm sorry, Im not trying to be rude, but I still dont get it. Common courtesy? There are so many other jobs that pay low but we dont tip?

I know they get paid less then min. but as I have said many times,,they can make over 30.00 an hour waiting on several tables. They take your order, bring your food and another drink and maybe clean the table, and then end up getting big wages because its expected??

You have to look at what the job is worth. THe person at McDonalds mopping the floor, taking out garbage and cleaning out the milkshake machine and putting up with long lines, etc. will get the min. wage. They actually do more work then the waiters at restaurants. Then take someone having a nice job that they have to be educated for..and worked hard for and maybe they make 15.00 an hour if they are lucky,,,

now here is the waiter and because society one day said lets tip,,they will make more then all of us. i understand the prices might go up on the food, but i still think it would be cheaper then tipping. As I said before, think about it,,,one person has to pay a tip of 12.00 on a 60.00 tab,,,the other pays a tip of 6.00 on a 30.00 tab. Now both customers maybe spent the same amount of time at the table and the waiter did the exact same work,,just had more expensive food,,that just doesnt make sense.

If one customer is dumb enough to leave a huge tip, then I guess that will make up for mine when I leave less,,,that way they arent making more then their job is worth,,,and i know many people feel the same.

[Alec]

You seem to be pretty married to your guesstimate about what waitstaff make per hour, regardless of the facts that are presented to you. If you are right and you could make $30 per hour, why don't you quit your civil service job and become a waitress?

I'm guessing the reason that statistics show waitstaff barely making any money is because there are a large number of cheap people who don't tip properly.

I like james' idea. If you think it is fair, then let the waitstaff know what you plan to tip before you order.

[Alec]

Once you get your waitress job, report back to us about how fun it is and how rich you've gotten.

I'll be interested in hearing about your shin splints from standing on a concrete floor 8 hours a day. The pain starts at your feet, works up your legs, and finally goes to your back. Then you'll get the rude customers who yell at you. The cooks will get the order wrong and your customers will blame you. There will be babies throwing food all over the floor. The kitchen itself is usually as hot as an oven. You won't get all of those government holidays off anymore because restaurants are basically open every day except Christmas. If you want to make any money at all, you'll have to work nights when the most business comes in. And don't forget how much it fun it is to serve teenagers who take your table for an hour and a half, order some appetizers and sodas, and then leave a tiny tip.

As if all of that were not enough, the restaurant will report 12% of your gross sales to the IRS as wages, even though there are cheapskates who think that they shouldn't have to tip as much on larger bills.

You're going to love being a waitress.

[Justawoman]

Well said Alec. Plus how can you compare McDonalds to an actual restaurant? I wait on myself at McDonalds. Perfect place for folks that are too cheap to tip. Wouldn't you agree?

[mary]

You know its funny how people can talk , but they have no idea sometimes, you shouldnt take things for granted that I have it made on a civil service job.

OK,,check this out,,I mean as far as your message goes and your comparisons. I work part time because the government doesnt want to make us full time to save money. Therefore I dont get paid for those holidays. I also have to work nights! They took out the carpet because it was so old,,and now i have to stand on the concrete floor as well,,and have already felt it just like you said in my legs,,they just ache. I also have put my back out many times,,I just missed work last week again because of that,,and here is a big one. The office I work in is closed in,,,,and the ac hasnt worked properly in the last couple years. Its getting worse and there were a few days a couple weeks ago where we felt sick because of the heat,,but its governemnt so they say they dont have the funds for carpeting or to get the ac fixed right.

Since they dont want to make us full time, we cant get medical ins. at the same rate as full time, so we have to pay double,,,even though we make way less. I also put up with rude customers,,and kids. That could take pages to tell you about that,,lol.

Then because im part time,,i vendor stock on the side to make extra money,,,that is paid by the case,.,and its only .35 a case.

Sooooooooooo please dont make assumptions and say quit my lovely job to be a waitress,,,

[Justawoman]

Or you could moonlight as one. The tips might come in handy.

[ChristyPosting]

I think Mary is comparing the 15% to 20% tipped waitress to other similar positions. On that comes to mind for me is our local lumberyard yard worker. He carries and stacks 2x4s, sheetrock, rolls of tar paper, and other heavy timbers all day long. He sometimes works out in the rain, the blistering sun, or the freezing snow. He makes $7.50 hour.

So, even though I question how he can only make $7.50 per hour, he continues to work there and with the back breaking, weather affected, splinter riddled work. I buy my building materials and respectfully disagree how he should be paid so much more (relative to similar jobs of responsiblity and service).

I understand if he gets a raise my $4 2x4 will go up in price, but he deserves it.

So as we compare various positions of responsibility to thier wages and what is expected, the bottom line is: Will people pay that price for that service? If the $4 2x4 goes up to $8, I will take my business elsewhere, not because the yard guy is making a better wage, but because the 2x4 costs $5 on the other side of town.

If I go to restaurant where gratuity is automatically calculated and included, I understand that my bill will reflect this, and if I dont care for the meal or service, I will not return. If this restaurant paid their workers $20 per hour, and my meal was very good, I could care less how much more this worker is making more than the stock yard guy at $7.50.

As we have the priviledge of micromanaging these waitressing wages, it is abused by those who never leave the understood 15% - 20% for good service.

If we only had the privilidge of tipping consultants who do a poor job, instead of being automatically charged the 33% of the project costs. Now that would be nice.

If you think the industry has brainwashed us into tipping to pay their salaries, I would find it interesting to hear Mary's perspective on purchasing large formations of carbon to be placed on fingers for holidays such as Valentines Day. :)

Bottom line is: If you think everyone else is a fool for paying that much for other's wages, then dont join in. Personally I dont dine out on a regular basis, as I don't think the whole dining experience is worth the check of $100 for 2. Is this due to the tipping? Partly so, but if I didnt have the priviledge of tipping it would be included directly as part of my meal, and then I may be served by someone who wouldnt be on their best performance, and wouldnt be worried about my beverage being full. I would just pay the 20% and be stuck with what I got.

As for how I deal with excellent service...... you can read about that on an earlier page if your are interested.

I am happy with the choices I have. If I dont agree with some of them, then I dont join in. Good luck.

[Grimey]

Welcome back!

[Justawoman]

Bottom line is: If you think everyone else is a fool for paying that much for other's wages, then dont join in. Personally I dont dine out on a regular basis, as I don't think the whole dining experience is worth the check of $100 for 2. Is this due to the tipping? Partly so, but if I didnt have the priviledge of tipping it would be included directly as part of my meal, and then I may be served by someone who wouldnt be on their best performance, and wouldnt be worried about my beverage being full. I would just pay the 20% and be stuck with what I got.

Amen and great sentiment.