Tipping the owner

[jamesglewisf]

This is a topic I get lots of email on. I'll post some of them here.

Question - Just wondering: why we still tip hair stylists who rent their booth, and receive the entire amount of the amount charged (i.e., the check is made out to the individual, not the salon). I know it started because hair stylists were employed by the salon, but times and things have changed...

[jamesglewisf]

Answer - Tips are always at your discretion. It's a service industry that relies on tips. Not all stylists rent a booth. Some are still employed by a salon. Prices are set to compete, but there is still the assumption of the tip.

[jamesglewisf]

ANother question via email - Regarding tipping the owner of a hair salon - I remember learning as a child (my mother was in the business) that you do not tip the owner because all of the profit is going directly to the owner. Employees get a tip because they earn less than minimum wage and the tip becomes a part of their salary. Your website states that you tip the owner the same as you would an employee. Could you please explain this to me? Thank you!

[jamesglewisf]

I can only offer you one answer: we tip a lot more people today than we did when we were young. Etiquette rules change over time. The current rule is that if the salon owner provides the service, you tip.

[isis]

Don't get me wrong, I'm a tipper. In fact my husband would say that I over tip, especially when it comes to the people who make me look my best. However, For five years, my hair was cut by the owner and premier stylist of a salon and spa. He drove a better car than me and owns five spas throughout the state.

I always tipped the people who assisted him (washers, color assistants, etc), but I would never DREAM of tipping him.

I think its overly cautious to tip the owner of any salon. Send them new business- its a much better compliment.

[CuriousG]

Not every owner of a salon is wealthy. Many people who own their own business in the service industry (salons, pet groomers etc.) aren't rich and don't make more than the average worker in any profession. Many of them own a business simply for having the opportunity to be their own boss. You tip for convenience and (ideally) quality of service. Denying someone a tip because they make a lot of money or more money than you is not a good reason to not tip them. I would think in the situation where a person is the owner of a large successful business or chain such as this, and works in one of their own facilities, would refuse tips (by a sign or communication of some other sort), or hopefully would redistribute the tips to his or her support staff. Many of these people work just to have something to do and be personally involved with their business. Other owner/workers actually need to work to be able make money since relying on the take-in of fellow employees (if there even are any) is not enough to sustain the business and/or owner. If you didn't tip anyone who made more money than you, there would be a lot of tipping that was eliminated since either the "tipper" had a very low income (yet was still using a service that included tipping) or the receiver of the tip makes good money in his or her profession. Ask a valet at the "Grand Floridian Resort" in Disney World what he or she makes. (It's in the 6 figures).

[rudysf@mac.com]

I rent my station at a medium to high end salon in San Francisco. Our position as renters is not much greater than commissioned stylist (those who are on the salon payroll). Out of my service fees, I pay an assistant $12.00 an hour, I pay "all" my own taxes including Social Security. As renters, we are not elligible for any insurance benefits offered by the salon so we must cover our own medical. We also pay for all our products color, perms, etc. Most of us usually have an accountant to make sure we are paying our fair share of taxes and that they are processed acurately. Need I say more? Sure we make out a little better than most stylists. Most of us enjoy the freedom that being self employed provides. Just as much, I appreciate the generosity shown by all my clients when they "tip me". In return, whenever I am provided "good" service I always tip generously.

[Justawoman]

I get charged 12 dollars for my haircut. I always give Melita a 20 and tell her to keep the difference. I think it is worth to have a haircut like I want it cut.

[jamesglewisf]

Thanks for the info, rudysf. This is the most common question I get. I got one via email earlier this week about tipping the owner of a salon. What's your opinion on the proper etiquette of tipping a salon owner?

[rudysf@mac.com]

Why would one choose to in a sense, penalize the owner of a salon for being more driven to grow and be succesful. I owned and operated a highly succesful salon in Arizona before moving to San Francisco but I will use the owner of the salon I now work in as an example. A single woman (divored) and mother of one child. This young woman took her life savings and made her dream come true. She wanted to provide for herself and employees a nice salon to work in and service clients. Salon owners work very hard (usually harder) to keep abreast with the latest styles and techniques. My salon owner bears the brunt of all that goes on in her salon and still provides her clients with some of the best service and work I have ever seen. I would proudly tip her if she was my hairstylist.

Of course, the owner of the salon is subject to meeting the same criteria as any other hair stylist. Quality of work, professionalism, etc.

I say tip accordingly.

[jamesglewisf]

Thanks. That's what I've been telling people.

[JacMac]

hi...I'm new...I found the site when looking for percentages on what to tip a hairstylist. I waitress so I know how important tipping is and I consider myself a darn good tipper when the tip is called for. However, I just can't help but ask....waitresses make $2.64 an hour before tips. We truly need those to survive....Hairstylists are salaried at what? $25,000-$35,000 a year possibly? yet the average tip for both professions is 15-20%? I am not trying to be stingy, and I don't want to come across that way, but truthfully, to get a wash, cut, color, yadda yadda...and have $120 in services added up - and in that same price bracket, I've run around, getting drinks, timing food, adhering to "special requests", carrying large trays of food, and keeping 6-10 tables happy at the same time making $2 an hour. I just don't see, I guess, how these even out to the amount of work done and the amount of money made prior to tips. I'm sorry if this is offensive to anyone....I'm just baffled.

[jaimegerise]

Boy, am I glad I don't have to worry about any of this...I've cut, colored and styled my own hair since I was 12!

[jamesglewisf]

I think you are missing some details. A self-employed stylist that takes home 100% of their fees has the following expenses:
Rent
Products (chemicals)
Salary of shampoo girls
Equipment purchases (The scissors they use cost a minimum of $150)
Equipment repair and sharpening ($25 for sharpening)
They have to pay for their own insurance.
They have to pay for their own retirement plan.
If they are sick or on vacation, they don't get paid.
No-shows - they lose the time slot and don't get paid.
Since they are self-employed, they pay all of the social security taxes.

After all of that, they take home about 50%.

For the people who don't own their space, they take home about 80% of the fee and have lots of the same expenses above. I think most of them are not salaried.

I think the average income is about $22,000 a year for hairstylists, hairdressers, and cosmetologists.

[Grimey]

I found this:

In Montana, the median wage for hairstylists and cosmetologists is $1,447 per month ($8.35 per hour). Half earn between $1,215 and $1,907 per month ($7.01 and $11.00 per hour). Cosmetologists in Montana state government earn between $2,340 and $2,945 per month ($13.50 and $16.99 per hour). Wages may include tips.

MSA wages are as follows:

Yellowstone County MSA $1,487 per month ($8.58 per hour). Half earn between $1,210 and $2,245 per month ($6.98 and $12.95 per hour).
Cascade County MSA $1,365 per month ($7.87 per hour). Half earn between $1,111 and $1,728 per month ($6.41 and $9.97 per hour).
Missoula County MSA $1,537 per month ($8.87 per hour). Half earn between $1,269 and $2,060 per month ($7.32 and $11.89 per hour).

Wages vary with hours worked, clientele, tips, shop location and size, and ability to attract regular customers. Earnings are often based on commissions and tips, or are a combination of hourly wages, commissions, and tips. Commissions are usually from 50 to 70 percent of the customer's fee for the services.

Nationally, the median wage for hairstylists and cosmetologists is $1,580 per month ($9.12 per hour). Half of all the hairstylists and cosmetologists earn between $1,250 and $2,130 per month ($7.22 and $12.31 per hour).

Pay varies by the hairstylist's experience and the range of services they provide. The number of customers they attract and hold also affects wages. In addition, pay varies by how much customers tip. Some hairstylists and cosmetologists receive a portion of money from the products they sell. In some salons, employees are paid bonuses for bringing in new clients.

Some salons offer benefits for full-time employees. These may include sick leave, paid vacation, and medical insurance. However, many hairstylists and cosmetologists are self-employed or work part time. These workers must provide their own benefits.
http://mcis.dli.state.mt.us/licocc_display.asp?id=1094

[Grimey]

Obviously, the majority of hairstylists don't earn much money. Nationally, half of them earn between $15,000 and $25,560 (including tips). That means that only 1/4 of hairstylists earn more than $25,560 a year.

If a hairstylist makes $35,00 a year, then they are one of the better at their profession. That's the starting salary for a lot of other professions. I don't think hairstylists are overpaid.

[Grimey]

It doesn't seem right to base your tipping on how much money you earn. By that standard, I might not pay a doctor more than $25 for a doctor visit. I might not pay a plumber more than $25 to fix my sink. Why should a plumber make more than I do?

That logic doesn't hold up for several reasons. First off, plumbing requires a different skill and knowledge level than a waiter. I know because I've been a waiter, and I've screwed up my plumbing trying to do it myself.

The same holds true for a hair stylist. They have to get a license and learn how to do it. If they mess up your hair, it's a little more serious than me messing up your food order.

If you can't afford the fee plus the tip, then you need to go to a place with a lower fee.

[JacMac]

Oh...now it all makes sense! Thank you for enlightening me...and I'm sure my stylist thanks you!

I always thought they did quite well for themselves. I never realized the out-of-pocket fees...as a waitress, I don't have to buy my own ketchup. I'll take my $2 an hour and shut up now....hee hee....

[JacMac]

I also didn't say I couldn't afford it - I was just not knowledgeable in the debt to income ratio of a typical stylist. I thought stylists either worked for a salon or owned it. I had no concept of the self-employed stylist prior to this conversation. Hence the reason I asked. and I appreciated the info given. Thank you.

[Grimey]

I'm glad we had the discussion. I had to search the web to find that stuff. I learned something new.

[JacMac]

ditto. and thanks for taking the time to research for me...I guess I could have done that myself...but we wouldn't have had this lovely conversation then, would we?

[newkid]

So I'm curious what you folks think about this situation. I've been having my neighbor (a hairstylist) cut my hair in her home. She has an area in the basement that she uses to do hair. Am I expected to tip her in this circumstance or is there some exception in this case?

[jamesglewisf]

If she is charging a competitive rate, then my assumption is that you would tip. Her place of business doesn't seem relevant.

[Kickkc]

Don't get me wrong, I'm a tipper...For five years, my hair was cut by the owner and premier stylist of a salon and spa. He drove a better car than me and owns five spas throughout the state...I think its overly cautious to tip the owner of any salon. Send them new business- its a much better compliment.

I don't tip my hair guy, who is the salon owner, but it doesn't have anything to do with him driving a better car than me (which he does, and always has). I was always told that you tip the stylists but not the owner because the owner is the one who has the ability to set his own price, which is usually higher than the rates for the other stylists. His position is more like an independent contractor. If he's not making enough money to cover his costs of doing business plus being compensated for his skills/service, then he has the ability to raise his rate, as opposed to the stylists who are employed by the salon instead of "self-employed." In fact, many owners do not expect to be tipped for that reason.

I will say that I did tip him once, but that was because I had to cancel an appointment at the last minute and he fit me in a couple days later, so I tipped for having inconvenienced him and in appreciation of his accommodation.

[jamesglewisf]

You are still operating under old, out-dated tipping guidelines. What you were always told has changed. There are a lot of things that we tip for now that we didn't tip for 10 years ago.

You tip the owner now.

[Grooming Bear]

I think you are missing some details. A self-employed stylist that takes home 100% of their fees has the following expenses:
Rent
Products (chemicals)
Salary of shampoo girls
Equipment purchases (The scissors they use cost a minimum of $150)
Equipment repair and sharpening ($25 for sharpening)
They have to pay for their own insurance.
They have to pay for their own retirement plan.
If they are sick or on vacation, they don't get paid.
No-shows - they lose the time slot and don't get paid.
Since they are self-employed, they pay all of the social security taxes.

After all of that, they take home about 50%.



Thank you for pointing this out! I think that many people don't really know what goes on behind the scenes to make their service (whatever it may be) as pleasant as possible.

What many people don't realize is that Pet groomers have these expenses as well. Even if they are employed by a salon groomers are usually paid comissions and still have the following expenses: equipment purchases, equipment repair & sharpining, loss of income from no-shows, and usually no sick/vacation time or health benifits. I've had many customers ask if they are supposed to tip me like they do their own hairstylist, for some reason they were not sure. Only once or twice have I had the nerve to sweetly ask them when the last time they did any of the following at their hairdressers: tried to bite, scratch or threaten the stylist, urinated or defecated in the sink or ON the stylist, or shook their head around while the stylist was trying to cut their hair.
That also helps to account for the possible price difference between an human and doggie hair cut :)

[jamesglewisf]

All of you people in service industries need to get over not being tipped. If you don't like it, get in a different industry. I'm a big believer in tipping, that's why I have a tipping page. But I'm tired of people in service industries whining about not getting tipped and being rude about it. Find a different job or quit your belly aching!

You're going to get a tip from me, but not everybody else. That's life.

BTW, you don't need to find the nerve to say what you did about the defecating and such. You should never say that stuff at all. You need to be polite and be glad that the people are interested in learning about tipping.

[Justawoman]

Amen Jim.

Plus when you do get tipped and it is not expected it makes the extra money that much more nicer. I do my service job because I like what I do and the people I work for. It is not about the fringe benefits or the hope of getting more. Service industry is about helping and making a difference. When did it become about money only?

[JuicersDad]

"Be nice to each other. Remember that someone having a different viewpoint from your own is not a hanging offense here at FrappyDoo! Please treat others with the same respect that you would wish to be accorded.

Do not be condescending in your posts."

Jamesglewisf, if you are going to say that people who are often required to work overtime, are often underpaid to the point of having to be on government assistance, and also face physical injury on a daily basis are "bellyaching" and "rude" when complaining about not being tipped, then unfortunately you represent the kind of clients that make them that way.

"BTW, you don't need to find the nerve to say what you did about the defecating and such. You should never say that stuff at all. You need to be polite and be glad that the people are interested in learning about tipping."

Why shouldn't GB inform a client that the job is more difficult and involves more service than a comparable industry that tends to get tipped? People in the service industry have as much right to personal dignity and respect as people in other industries. I am in the pet industry as well, and I can tell you that many groomers do not get rude about tips because they are money-grubbing. They get rude because their client in her fur coat who got her hair done and her car washed that day complain that the $5 price increase coming is going to force them to starve. They "bellyache" as you put it because there is a difference in a client just not tipping and a client making it very clear that they do not consider you or you industry worth tipping.

"Service industry is about helping and making a difference. When did it become about money only?"

Justawoman, being a nurse, being a doctor, being a paramedic, being a soldier, being a policeman are some of the professions that are about helping and making a difference. Those people do not get tipped. The person who styles your hair to make you fashionable, grooms your dog to make it fashionable, brings you your food from the kitchen so you do not have to serve yourself-these jobs are about making someone's life easier and more convenient. The people in jobs that help and make a difference need to be paid more. The people making life easier for everyone else-a few bucks their way as a form of "thank you" is not inappropriate to expect.

[jamesglewisf]

Get a different job. You live in America. You don't have to be a pet groomer. With the same amount of education, you could be a waiter in a restaurant. With the same amount of education, you could work in a pet store. With the same amount of education, you can do hundreds of different jobs where pets are not involved. You live in America. If you don't like the compensation or working conditions associated with your job, get a different one.

I know people who started with nothing, without assistance from their families. They started out working jobs like a clerk in a mail room, and they went to community college at night. They spent years getting their educations while working full time, and now they make a nice living. But they sacrificed, worked hard, and didn't spend a lot of time griping.

When a client asks about tipping, GB should tell her what is considered appropriate. She can even direct the client to www.tipguide.org where I tell people to tip dog groomers. I believe in tipping dog groomers. But she shouldn't be rude about it.

And frankly, covetousness should have nothing to do with your response. The fact that someone has more money than you shouldn't change your behavior to them. The fact that someone is rude to you shouldn't change your behavior to them. Being rude back is not the honorable thing to do. It sure is tempting, but it is not honorable or right.

People, Americans live in Disneyworld. Just go to a third-world country and see what real poverty looks like. We live in the land of opportunity. If you study and work hard, you can eke out a good living. You might not make Bill Gates money, but you won't be making South America money.

I once had a job where one of the things I got to do was shovel the trash and maggots out of a dumpsters at the land fill. That motivated me to work hard so that I could do something else. It didn't motivate me to sit around griping about my pay or working conditions.

I created my tipping site to educate people about tipping. I added this forum so that people could ask questions about tipping. I get a lot of sincere questions about tipping, and then I get a lot of people from service industries who come here to gripe about tipping. It doesn't make people want to tip more. It is just annoying.

[Grimey]

A. The posts are off-topic. This is a thread about tipping the owner of a hair salon, not pet groomers.

B. There's nothing like joining a discussion forum and making your first post a complaint.

C. There is a thread about tipping pet groomers (http://www.frappydoo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1892). Here is what James said - Most dog groomers are paid based upon a commission, not a regular salary or hourly wage. They will tell you that tips are greatly appreciated.

Typically it is 15% of the bill or $2 per dog, whichever is greater. If your dog is difficult, then I would tip more. Obviously, don't tip if the quality is poor.

I always tend to err on the side being generous. When in doubt, I tip.

He sounds like an advocate for being generous to pet groomers.

[Grooming Bear]

Wow. Just wow. I signed on to this board and read the rules with hope. I had seen so many other boards where people felt they could hide behind a computer screen and be nasty, and was looking forward to these boards not being like that. Apparently, at least according to James, my low level of education has impared my ability to read and comprehend as well as to clearly convey my point in writing. I will attempt to clarify a few points solely for my benifit, as I'm sure it will be lost on James & others here.

I was not whining or bellyaching. I was thanking James for his explanations and commenting that owners of grooming salons were comprapable to owners of hair salons. I am never, ever rude to my customers, I never even implied that I was and did say I sweetly pointed things out to them. I am a professional, and as a professional it is part of my job to educate my clients about what goes on during the grooming process. If you think that being told the truth about how your pet behaves is being rude, than you are the one living in Disneyland.

In regards to it being just about the money: I love my job, but that does not mean I will be treated like a servant or work for not enough to make ends meet. That is how it is about the money. A tip is an expression of thanks, and I am glad to get them but neither expect nor depend on them.

Covetousness has nothing to do with this in the least. Having enough self respect to not accept rudeness from well off clients or internet bulliten board moderators has a great deal to do with this. While I am glad that there is a wonderful tipping guide avaliable, I am saddend to see that the desire for self edification ends at what to do to conform to social standards and does not extend to caring to understand what level of skill, training, education and old fashioned hard work goes into a profession.

Grimey, I was not complaining, nor did I think I was being off topic. Many pet groomers own their own shops and people wonder if they should tip them as owners. The thread also mentioned hairstylists who were independent contractors, as are many pet groomers. It was relevant.

Now here is the off topic stuff.
I have never been so blatently and abruptly attacked in an online setting. The fact that the rudeness came from the owner of the site is astonishing. I am glad that I found out so quickly that this is not the kind of rude, petty place I wish to waste my time and energy on.

In case this post seems rude or personal, it is not. It is the response of someone offended by being personally attacked, her professionalism, and manners being questioned. You were rude and hurtful James. Shame on you for not having enough pride in your site to set a good example.

[Justawoman]

"Service industry is about helping and making a difference. When did it become about money only?"

Justawoman, being a nurse, being a doctor, being a paramedic, being a soldier, being a policeman are some of the professions that are about helping and making a difference. Those people do not get tipped. The person who styles your hair to make you fashionable, grooms your dog to make it fashionable, brings you your food from the kitchen so you do not have to serve yourself-these jobs are about making someone's life easier and more convenient. The people in jobs that help and make a difference need to be paid more. The people making life easier for everyone else-a few bucks their way as a form of "thank you" is not inappropriate to expect.

The whole thing about those of us who would fall into the category, in some minds, about having jobs that just make life easier and more convenient need to talk to those clients we have who are disabled and handicapped. I bet they would beg to differ.

I have also met a few nurses and watched a few doctors who seem to be in it just for the money and don't really care about getting to know their patients and making a difference in their life. It can be about the money no matter what job you are in.

I think what got Grooming Bear a negative response was the fact the comment was made about defecating and urinating. No, we didn't need to know this. Anyone with a dog knows they can do this at the groomers. Especially if the owner is inconsiderate enough to let them eat or drink before going to their appointment and fails to give them time to do their business. Our schnauzer did this once to his groomer and we paid her extra. Common sense says I wouldn't want this to happen to me. Common sense also taught me to walk my dog prior to his appointment and let him do his business and to put his food up prior to his appointment.

Of course you are always going to have the customer who finds fault no matter what you do and who is inconsiderate. It is life.

[jamesglewisf]

Grooming Bear. I apologize for taking my frustration out on you. Please forgive me for blasting you about griping. You are right. I was rude.

Just some notes -

I didn't claim that dog groomers had low educations. I said that the education requirements for other jobs are the same as the education requirements for dog groomers. Hence, dog groomers could be doing something other than dog grooming.

The covetousness part of my response was to JuicersDad, not you. You never mentioned how much money your customers have.

I also never said anything about it just being about the money. That was someone else. I said that if you don't like the compensation or working conditions for your current job, find another one. That was in response to -
Even if they are employed by a salon groomers are usually paid comissions and still have the following expenses: equipment purchases, equipment repair & sharpining, loss of income from no-shows, and usually no sick/vacation time or health benifits. I've had many customers ask if they are supposed to tip me like they do their own hairstylist, for some reason they were not sure. Only once or twice have I had the nerve to sweetly ask them when the last time they did any of the following at their hairdressers: tried to bite, scratch or threaten the stylist, urinated or defecated in the sink or ON the stylist, or shook their head around while the stylist was trying to cut their hair.
Again, I should not have barked at you, and for that I apologize.

[mauricev]

You are still operating under old, out-dated tipping guidelines. What you were always told has changed. There are a lot of things that we tip for now that we didn't tip for 10 years ago.

You tip the owner now.

So the change happened in the last 10 years? How did it get decided and by whom? Does it apply to the entire US? Why did it change? Is there is list of these new guidelines posted somewhere?

[jamesglewisf]

I spend a lot of time reading online articles, magazine articles, newspaper articles, and books about tipping. I also interview people about tipping.

www.tipguide.org - (my site)
http://www.tipping.org/tips/TipsPageBeautyShop.html
http://lifestyle.msn.com/BeautyandFashion/Hair/Articlelhj.aspx?cp-documentid=45209
http://citypaper.net/articles/082400/nc.salon.shtml
http://money.cnn.com/pf/features/lists/tipping/