Religious Intolerance

[jamesglewisf]

Grrrrr... Religious intolerance drives me crazy.

The latest story comes from the U.S. Air Force academy where some so-called Christians are being accused of religious intolerance.
Now the academy is dealing with a new controversy over charges of religious intolerance. Of the roughly 4,000 cadets at the Air Force Academy, about 93 percent are Christian. Minority students say they've been subjected to verbal abuse and made to feel like second-class citizens.

Curtis Weinstein said he experienced this on the softball field from a cadet whose name he didn't know. "He knew I was Jewish and referred to myself and my religion using the f-word, calling me, like, an f-ing Jew, and blaming me for killing Jesus," Weinstein said.
http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/US/story?id=513523&page=1

First and foremost, Christians are the last people who are supposed to be persecuting other people based upon religion.

Second, Jesus and all of the apostles were Jews. The Jews are God's chosen people, and God says He will curse those who curse the Jews.

Third, both Jews and Gentiles killed Jesus. In other words, we were all responsible.

[jaimegerise]

Oh man, that really sucks!

[Madge]

There is no room in this world for religious intolerance. Look at the wars, strife and suffering it has caused around the world, past and present. I was born and raised a Catholic but now consider myself a member of the Congregational Church. When I hear people calling Jews names, I wonder about their strength and understanding of faith. Where do they think it all started? When I meet someone of another faith I can't help myself to ask questions and learn as much as I can. I once worked with a lady who was a Jehova's Witness. Everyone else was afraid of her, as if she'd try to suck their brains out and convert them. What I found out was that this lady was well versed in ALMOST every religion, faith and way of thought there was. VERY educated and informed.

FEAR is the motivating emotion or thought that keeps intolerance alive. Get over it, people - EDUCATE yourselves to the world around you.

[JacMac]

You know...I face forms of religious intolerance for exactly what Madge was discussing. I am a witch. People absolutely FREAK when they hear it; just the word in itself causes this tension. It is amazing to see. People who have known me my whole life find out that I am a witch and all of a sudden think that I kill cats and put spells on people. They judge the word "witch" over who I have proven myself to be.

On another note, I find that there is different forms of this intolerance. There is the predjudice which aligns with harassment/persecution, there is general ignorance of another's belief and the unwillingness to want to educate themselves (like in Madge's example) then there are situations like one I recently read right here on Frappy where even after a person confirmed they were not Christian, another member continued to pass judgments on that person based on the Christian faith, stating that that person was a "sinner". I don't judge another faith based on my own. I respect that each faith is different. I feel that this is a form of religious intolerance as well. It's like saying you respect another language and expecting that person to speak to you in English....it doesn't work that way! A good example of this was the "blow-out" I had a while back feeling judged by another religion when after the situation was clarified turned out to be that I was being held up to the standard of the faith I was presumed to be, and that is fine, but because I wasn't that faith, it was offensive. I was hoping to clarify the post with that last thought and I think I made it more confusing. Maybe it's too late...I think I'm gonna go to bed....

[Grimey]

Whether you are a Christian, a witch, or an atheist, adults lusting after children and having sexaul fantasies about them is wrong. That's not religous intolerance. That's reality.

That guy was here for one reason -- to promote pedophilia. You have to have seen that. He doesn't deserve tolerance. Tolerance for your religion is appropriate. You don't tolerate pedophilia or those who advocate it.

[jaimegerise]

hmmm Grimey, what does the pedo stuff in the other thread have to do with this one? I'm lost....

[Justawoman]

When we were newly married my father-inlaw would make jokes about Jews and Germans nonstop. I was taught to be tolerant of raciast folks. I knew my father-inlaw worked for Jews and his wife best friend was German. His jokes went along the lines like this, " Germans think they are so much better, watch those Jews they will screw you out of money." Eventually I had had enough and stopped him dead cold one day. I looked at him and said," what do you see when you see me?" Of course he said someone I love and care about. I said, " then stop the German jokes and the Jew jokes." I had to then explain that my heritage is both. We are not practicing Judiasm. I was raised Christian in my Mothers faith. But my Father's heritage is non the less very interesting to me and one I love reading on. I have also made for sure that my girls know both sides of my and their heritage.

I have to agree with Madge when she said, "FEAR is the motivating emotion or thought that keeps intolerance alive. Get over it, people - EDUCATE yourselves to the world around you."

[Madge]

This is gonna be a great thread....

JacMac, I have a friend who devoted herself to the Wiccan faith many years ago. I was a bit put aside way back then (I think that's where I learned tolerance and understanding of things like this, to NOT fear), but decided that because this was such a great friend of mine I'd find out more. I learned (in sheer layman's terms) that Wiccans are "open" to nature and the forces with and behind it. They "pray" to nature, the seasons and the changes they bring. We're talking about "white wiches", not "black witches". Wiccans do not cast evil spells on people or turn them into frogs. Wiccans like to be thought of as the natural healers, those that can detect and protect against bad kharma and can clear the room of darkness. Please correct me if I'm wrong, JM - this is my take on it.

As far as the other post is concerned, I understand Grimey's feelings, in as much as they really (in MY mind) don't have anything to do with religion. Keep in mind all of the Catholic priests arrested, convicted and defrocked for their crimes of molestation of children. I feel that the posted who claimed to be a pedophile was in a sense trying to cleanse himself through his divulging his interests. I may be able to "tolerate" what this poster had to say, but I certainly would not leave a child in his/her care - that would be like leaving a small child with a cigarette lighter as a babysitter. Something COULD happen. I don't think this poster was trying to promote pedophilia - maybe he/she was "trying out" this admission on an audience that did not know him/her.

I was born and raised a Catholic. I am NOT a Catholic now, nor will I ever return. "Christians" do not consider me to be a Christian, because I don't think JUST like them. I believe in God and His son, Jesus and the 2nd coming. I believe that if you conduct yourself in the manner that Jesus tried to teach, that you were doing a good job. Jesus died for that. I kinda figure I owe it to Him! I'm BY FAR not a perfect person. I simply try to do my best.

[Grimey]

hmmm Grimey, what does the pedo stuff in the other thread have to do with this one? I'm lost....
Because JacMac is referring to me in that thread.

[Grimey]

JAW, he wasn't coming clean. I promise you. He was promoting the whole NAMBLA agenda. Just go to their website. You'll see the same stuff.

When you are coming clean, you admit that you were wrong. He never did. He defended pedophilia. When you are coming clean, you don't advocate the whole fake "children's rights" thing that NAMBLA advocates. He wasn't coming clean. Believe me. He came here with an agenda.

[Madge]

I'm not familiar with NAMBLA, Grimey - what is that? I'm not saying you're WRONG, Grimey, I just prefer to give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Once I read into this NAMBLA thing, I may very wekk agree with you entirely. I have to KNOW a little something about a matter before I speak out. My Mommy taught me that....

[Grimey]

North American Man Boy Love Association

[jaimegerise]

Because JacMac is referring to me in that thread.

Oh, doh...sorry, heh, shows how much I pay attention sometimes.

[Madge]

I think I'm sorry I asked, Grimey. Thanks, tho..... I may look it up to find out what they're all about.

[Justawoman]

JAW, he wasn't coming clean. I promise you. He was promoting the whole NAMBLA agenda. Just go to their website. You'll see the same stuff.


I take it this is referring to my post in his thread? You lost me there Grimey but it doesn't take much today to do that.

JacMac, the other forum I use to post at has a whole section devoted to Wiccan theology or lifestyle. It was always interesting to read their take on things. I always found their take on life pretty much how anyone feels who loves their world and respects their fellow man. I don't think you will find any of us running from the forum just because of your beliefs. Heck if my redneck talk hasn't sent anyone running and shaking their head nothin will.

Witchcraft is actually very interesting. There are a ton of sites on the internet devoted to the craft.

[Grimey]

JAW, you're not confused. I am. I meant Madge's post in this thread, not yours. My bad.

[Madge]

Witchcraft, or Wicca is a very gentle and loving practice. I saw a picture once that pretty much sums it up - it was of a priestess with her arms and legs spread out, pointing to the four seasons with her head uplifted. Very pretty.

[Grimey]

Yeah, JacMac, I don't think you'll get run out of here. Wiggles likes having people of all different backgrounds.

[Madge]

What did I say? Now I have to go back and look - I thought you were talkign about someone else, too Grimey.

[Madge]

Gee, Grimey - I still don't see where I said anything wrong about the poster claiming to be a pedophile. I never condoned his thinking, I just said I needed to know more, and was thinking of reasons he may have posted what he did.

[Grimey]

This is what you said.
I don't think this poster was trying to promote pedophilia - maybe he/she was "trying out" this admission on an audience that did not know him/her.
I disagree. I think he came here with an agenda. He's posted on several other boards. I'm not picking on you. I just think he had a plan.

If FrappyDoo were my board, I'd delete all of his posts.

[Madge]

Well that's DIFFERENT! I had no idea that's he's been posting around - my apologies to you - you're more than likely right, then. If this poster DOES have a plan to spread the practice of pedophilia then he SHOULD be banned from this site. I just always try to see both sides of stories. I learned the hard way how to do that! http://www.frappydoo.com/forum/images/smilies/smilez.gif

[Grimey]

You can read Kaliko_Kat's posts in this thread: http://www.frappydoo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2650

You can tell that he thinks he's doing nothing wrong and then he moves into the doubletalk that pedophiles use about children's rights. That's just a pedophilia advocate's doubletalk for why it shouldn't be illegal for adults to have sex with children.

I don't think it is religious intolerance to expose the malarkey of a unrepentant pedophile. If he had come here admitting that pedophilia was wrong and that he was in counseling, I would have commended him, not exposed his lies.

[jamesglewisf]

You can read Kaliko_Kat's posts in this thread: http://www.frappydoo.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2650

You can tell that he thinks he's doing nothing wrong and then he moves into the doubletalk that pedophiles use about children's rights. That's just a pedophilia advocate's doubletalk for why it shouldn't be illegal for adults to have sex with children.

I don't think it is religious intolerance to expose the malarkey of a unrepentant pedophile. If he had come here admitting that pedophilia was wrong and that he was in counseling, I would have commended him, not exposed his lies.
I don't think he's coming back.

[Grimey]

Yeah, yeah, yeah.

[jamesglewisf]

If FrappyDoo were my board, I'd delete all of his posts.
I've thought about it seriously. Then a lot of other posts wouldn't make sense. It would make more sense just to get rid of the thread.

I kind of prefer to leave it where it is. It became educational, IMO, when you and CuriousG started picking him apart.

[jamesglewisf]

Anyhoo, back to the original topic.

JacMac, I don't agree with your religion, but I don't mind you posting about it. And I'm certainly not going to call you names over it and yell at you about it.

[Justawoman]

I don't think Kat will come back and if he does it will be with another tirade of whys and wherefores that he is right. But you can pretty much read from our reactions that we don't accept what he calls child love as such. I guess you can call me and Madge niave but I thought he was looking for acceptance and some place to talk about what he does. That pretty much is an agenda I guess but he got no green lights here to keep spreading it.

[JacMac]

wow...so much to read....

Back to why this pedophilia talk started in this religious intolerance thread in the first place. I disagree that lust is bad. Ever seen a cat in heat? If there wasn't the desire to have sex in the first place, none of us would be here. It is YOUR religion that tells you it's a sin, like in the post I was referring to, you actually quoted Kat stating he/she was not Christian and followed it with "lust is a sin. See -" and quoted the bible. The fact that witches believe in the power and energy of sexuality is also why Christians claimed we had wild sex parties with the devil. Christians claim lust is a sin, not everyone believes that or is evil because of it. I am referred to as a "good girl" by guys that I meet (my boyfriend was attracted to me because of it) I am not promiscuous, and the fact that I may "lust", "fantasize" or anything else like that does not change who I am, IMO - or in my religion, and you judging me based on what your religion tells you is not right. It is saying that you are right, and I am wrong. To each his own.

Yes Madge, you nailed my religion in your brief summary. One little difference that I believe is a quote from the Hollywood (not entirely accurate) version of Wicca in the movie The Craft where the "real" witch in the shop tells the good girl that "there is no such thing as black or white magic - it's all in the heart of the witch." I believe that intention is everything. I don't think there are "good" witches and "bad" witches anymore so than "good" Christians and "bad" Christians or "good" Jews and "bad" Jews. We are all human and it is the intention we hold in our hearts that decipher the good from the bad - there is no separation of that whole. Yin and Yang - even in one there is a bit of the opposite. No one, No thing can be all one and not the other and I don't believe that is the goal. Separation causes conflict - we should embrace the whole.

And am I the only person who thought Kalico_Kat was a girl?

I am also torn about this situation. I don't know about all the other posts that "Kat" has posted and whether he/she is promoting pedophilia or the understanding of a misunderstood disease. Do Obsessive Compulsives seek treatment and admit they are wrong or do they try to live with a disorder that makes them crazy and hope people understand them? Fortunately for us OCD simply makes people want things in order instead of being attracted to small children. I do not think that self-hate should be our answer to pedophilia. It is a disorder. If it had an easy cure, we would already have fixed it - but as Madge said, we coud "EDUCATE" ourselves about it. Knowledge is power and perhaps our best defense. We can't lock up everybody who has a disorder to make the world a safer place. In no way, IMO, did Kat seem supportive of NAMBLA (Madge, they are the organization at fault for the death of that little Massachusetts boy Jeff Curley, if you remember his horrible abduction and death - NAMBLA has a website that teaches people how to lure in children, etc.) also because He/She admitted to having no attraction to minor boys. Maybe if it was NAMGLA (substituting girl for boy) or NAWGLA (since I believed Kat was a girl). He/She seemed to me, to be a person born with a horrible disorder. People don't choose do have Downs Syndrome, Autism, OCD, PDD, or to be Gay/Lesbian, etc. Our bodies/brains are complex machines that sometimes connect the wrong wires, create too many Y or X chromosomes, etc. I felt that Kat was saying it is OK to have a disorder as long as you understand it, control it, and don't harm people by it - not it's OK for adults to have sex with children. I don't feel that we should be so quick to generalize about something so vaguely understood (unless of course anyone here has done extensive research on disorders, what causes them, and how to cure them?)

But of course, I could be totally wrong here, Kat could be different than I interpreted. I think He/She could be a spammer who's "agenda" is to educate people about a misunderstood disorder.

Oh, and BTW thank you everyone for being open to my religion, and for taking the time to find out what we believe before judging us. Not enough people educate themselves before making a decision.

[Justawoman]

I think what got everyone going at Kat is the fact that this individual didn't view it as a disorder but normal JacMac. You are right about the educating yourself before judging statement. It does make difference in how you view someone. It usually paints awhole other picture when you can take the time to open your eyes to someone elses differences. You might not agree with the person but you might just understand them a tadbit better.

[JacMac]

Ohmigod....okay...I only read Kat's first post talking about the "disorder" of pedophilia. I have been busy at work (the reason I don't post as much as I used to) and I only got through a portion of that thread. I just went back and read all the remaining disturbances of his/her opinion of "child rights" and how much sickeningly descriptive adoration she/he feels for children. I can't believe I defended this scumbag. I thought it was purely physical attraction that he/she could not control in his/her mind, but knew it was truly a disorder and as so, would never act on it. JAW, he/she actually said it was normal!!!! ohmigod....I am so disturbed!

[JacMac]

oh BTW JAW, where else do you post? It is always refreshing to find others with my beliefs...most of us are too afraid to come out of the "broom closet" if you know what I mean, hee hee....{witch}

I understand why you all have the Christian posting forums. It is nice to debate perspectives at times, and nice to be supported in your beliefs at other times, y'know?

[Grimey]

It is pretty disturbing, isn't it.

I don't go around just picking on people without reason. Unfortunately, I have seen his tactics before on other boards. There was a big discussion of NAMBLA on the radio this past week because of an undercover sting operation where some NAMBLA members were trying to go to Mexico to have sex with boys. They were busted in San Diego.

Please know, JacMac, that if he came here seeking some kind of help or was trying to do better, I would have never gone after him. But that is not the reason he came here. He came here to spread the lies.

You aren't going to find me trying to talk down people with different religious beliefs. I'll share mine, but I won't berate them over theirs. If they want to debate it, then great. If they don't, I'll leave them alone. But I'm not going to stand around while a pedophile is acting self-righteous, when I know what he really wants is to make child molestation legal as consensual sex.

If I came off as picking on him for lack of religious beliefs, I apologize. I was picking on him because he was defending his deviant behavior by claiming that since he is non-religous it didn't matter.

The problem with NAMBLA is that they want to change the conversation and make people feel like they are supporting the rights of children. It's a load of hooey. Anyone who has a kid or really loves kids knows that.

You can debate all you want about consensual homosexual or heterosexual sex between adults. I'll debate with you, but I'll be nice. But I'm going to pummel you if you start advocating sex with children as consensual. JacMac, I know you would have done the same thing because we both know that it is disgusting and disturbing.

[CuriousG]

Just a quick thought on the lust thing...

I think ideas get skewed when it comes to Christians and non-Christians views on sex and lust. The bible and Christianity does not look down upon sex, it is just that sex is supposed to be an expression of love between two people devoted to eachother. Sex is a wonderful and beautiful thing that a man and wife have every right to partake in. Lust on the otherhand is absent of love. Webster's dictionary defines lust as...

1 obsolete a : PLEASURE, DELIGHT b : personal inclination : WISH
2 : usually intense or unbridled sexual desire : LASCIVIOUSNESS
3 a : an intense longing : CRAVING b : ENTHUSIASM, EAGERNESS

Being human, lust is something that almost everyone experiences at some point and must battle with. We live in a sexually driven society that embraces lust and encourages it. It's just another case of, if it makes me feel good and comes as a natural feeling, I should be allowed to do it, because it's hard not to. You are free to believe what you want, but if someone has traditional Christian values, does that make them intolerant and ignorant? No, it doesn't as long as they aren't harrassing someone whose beliefs are different.

[JacMac]

Grimey, you are right.

I only had read that first entrance post stating how he (?) would never cross that line because of his (?) love for kids. I felt sorry for him. I thought how horribly torturous it would be to be born "different" and be unable to act on what felt right for you. (I guess how gays felt years ago...and to some degree now) I just have this compassion for people that I can't overcome. I always put myself in anothers position and try to imagine how they feel. It wasn't until a few posts later that I truly saw how Kat was trying to make it sound like children are consenting by saying that us talking to them like they are children is "dehumanizing" or that they have "rights" of their own. What a screwed up image to project, huh? My friend's 2 year old son told her he was movin' to "Mimi and Papa's" (her Mother and Father's) because she told him he couldn't do something. Was she not respecting his rights as a "human" to choose to move out? This is SUCH a ridiculous concept. If children had better ability to make rational decisions at young ages, 18 would not be the age for "legal" adult. What a scumbag!!! You must have read into the post from having previous experience with this. I never even knew the definition of pedophile or the difference in any of this until that thread. I thought you were judging the fact that he experiences lust (which most of us non-Christians don't think is all that big a deal unless acted upon in excess or with promiscuity). I was completely naive and fell for the sad story until you called him out on it. then the self-righteousness began.... I totally see now where you were coming from and apologize that I defended the dirty birdy....

CG, I see what you mean - I guess I see the difference. So wanting to jump your spouse isn't lust? I mean...I love my boyfriend to the ends of the earth so it's okay to lust after him now and then?

[Grimey]

I think Kat would say that the reason your example is wrong is because your friend's kid is 2 years old. Now if he was 5 years old, he would have the wisdom of the ages. ;)

[jamesglewisf]

JacMac,

I'm sorry that people pick on you for your religion. Many Christians have such a weak knowledge of they Bible and their faith that when confronted with something they don't understand, they resort to name calling or they blurt out statements that reveal their lack of knowledge. Frankly, that is why I have that Bible Q&A forum. If someone wants to know the truth about what the Bible says on a topic, I'll give them the answer straight from the Bible.

I'm amazed at the junk that non-Christians have heard from Christians. When I show them what the Bible really says, they realize that their original source knew less about what he was talking about than they did. Many of the prejudices against Christians are based upon Christians who speak with authority but have no real knowledge to back it up.

That's why I started this thread. Ignorant Christians drive me nuts. Religous intolerance comes from both sides.

I used to be active on a technology board where Christians and non-Christians would have it out. I spent more time dissecting what the Christians said than what the non-Christians said. Then I would throw out a challenge. I would tell them that in 15 minutes a day, they could read through the whole Bible in a year. Then the next time they were arguing with a so-called Bible expert, they would know whether he was full of baloney or not. They could say with authority, "Have you ever read the Bible, the whole thing? Well, I have, and you don't know what you are talking about." Then I pointed them to my marrieadults.com website and told them they could get a free copy of the One Year Bible just by asking.

[Justawoman]

JacMac the other forum is Foolmoon.

[ladyserenity]

Just adding my two cents here. I abhor religious intolerance, and it happens all the time. Muslims in the USA are treated so horribly now, so many equate Islam with terroism. Looking at the deeper meaning in all the religions, they really all say basically the same things.

[Madge]

Holy Cow. Where do I start. First thing - I had NO IDEA that "someone" would or could come to a forum such as this to spread the notion that pedophilia is "OK", or to try to get support for something that is sick and twisted. I was just trying to imagine how alone and tortured this person must feel, and how "courageous" they were to talk about and deal with it. I must be way more naiive than I ever imagined. I received Kaliko_Kat's posts pretty much the very same way JacMac did, except I thought it was a male, not a female, which in and of itself is an interesting observation, JM.

I certainly DO remember the little boy from MA, Jeff Curley and what happened to him. The very thought of what that baby suffered makes me want to bring up my breakfast - I'm sorry I didn't see these posts the way you did, Grimey. Going back to re-read things DOES put a different spin on the subject. I just NEVER expected to be solicited the way we were in Frappy Doo of all places, where I've always felt "safe".

THANK YOU, Jim for what you said about "non-Christians" (I guess that's me...) and the junk that "Christians" spew out without really knowing what they're talking about. I've always felt that "Bible thumpers" are trying to prove more to themselves than anyone else. That's sad. To use religion to try to be more socially accepted, or to pump yourself up to compensate for what you feel is missing is wrong. Some of the most "religious" of people that I know carry their faith and beliefs with them in quiet sanctity, without the need to inform everyone they meet at every second. They're happy and comfortable with their faith, it's just a part of them, not an appendage. I also know people that others literally run from so they're not preached at. These people are very sad. I pity them.

[Justawoman]

Just adding my two cents here. I abhor religious intolerance, and it happens all the time. Muslims in the USA are treated so horribly now, so many equate Islam with terroism. Looking at the deeper meaning in all the religions, they really all say basically the same things.

I know that from day one of my being here in Frappyland I have bragged on my hometown. I love Muleshoe. Not only was it a great place for me to grow up but it has been a wonderful place for my children to grow up. I grew up being allowed to attend church with my Catholic friends, my Assembly of God friends, my Methodist friends, and Baptist.That is only a few of the religious establishments here, for such a small town we have more churches than gas stations. My mom felt like it added to my knowledge of why she choose the faith she did to raise me and my siblings in.
Now our community has grown, due to the dairy industry, and the religious tolerance in our community can still be found. We have Muslims. I have never heard anyone spout hatred their way or threaten their businesses. I can't imagine why that kind of ignorance even exists and I am sure it does. You all talk about it alot and I believe everyone of you. Plus I can read and see it in the news. It saddens me. I believe our country is great because of all of the diversity that can be found clear across the board. I will say it again, I guess I grew up lucky. Differences weren't something to fear they were something to enrich my life and the lives of my friends. This whole section of Texas is like my hometown in the tolerance department. I have yet to see an act of violence due to someone being a Muslim. I am blessed to live here. Religions are embraced and encouraged and we truly do try to treat our neighbor as we would want to be treated.

[ladyserenity]

I know that from day one of my being here in Frappyland I have bragged on my hometown. I love Muleshoe. Not only was it a great place for me to grow up but it has been a wonderful place for my children to grow up.

I think that is wonderful! There are places scattered all around like that, and it's unfortunate we don't hear more about them.

Differences weren't something to fear they were something to enrich my life and the lives of my friends. This whole section of Texas is like my hometown in the tolerance department. I have yet to see an act of violence due to someone being a Muslim. I am blessed to live here. Religions are embraced and encouraged and we truly do try to treat our neighbor as we would want to be treated.

That is what it ought to be all about. IMHO true religion and spirituality is about tolerance, understanding, and loving one another regardless of differences.

[Madge]

Well said, lady! (BTW - what DOES IMHO mean?)

[ladyserenity]

Thank you Madge. IMHO=in my humble opinion :)

[JacMac]

Wow. I guess when I took that little frappy break I missed a bit.

thanks for responding to me JAW and Jim. JAW I will definitely check out foolmoon. Thanks!

[Justawoman]

Foolmoon can make our disagreements look like a cake walk.