What does the Bible say about homosexuality?

[Anat]

Hi all,

I have a question, which interests me as a Jew, seeking to learn about Christianity (and not looking for conversion )

In the general discussion forum we had a thread about homosexuality. Among other things, Chris mentioned that this is a simple moral question for him as a Christian because the Bible says it's wrong.

To the best of my knowledge, the Torah says it's wrong. Does it say the same in the New Testament, or do the rules in the Torah also also apply to Christians? All of them? Some of them?

Just curiosity really. I wouldn't mind a debate, but as this could be a sensitive issue, it's important for me to say right now that I have total respect for your beliefs and in no way do I wish to offend anyone, even by mistake. So, please let me know if something I say on the subject is out of line.

Thanks!

Anat

[jamesglewisf]

Christians call the Torah the "Old Testament." We have 66 books to our Bible: Genesis through Malachi in the Old Testament, and Matthew through Revelation in the New Testament.

[jamesglewisf]

Some New Testament references to homosexuality are:

1 Corinthians 6:9-11
9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,
10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
11 And such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, and in the Spirit of our God.

Notice that homosexuality is right there beside fornication, adultery, theft, covetousness, and drunkenness. Also notice that verse 11 says that all of the above people can be saved from their sin.

[jamesglewisf]

Romans 1:21-32
21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened.
22 Professing to be wise, they became fools,
23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, that their bodies might be dishonored among them.
25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.
26 For this reason God gave them over to degrading passions; for their women exchanged the natural function for that which is unnatural,
27 and in the same way also the men abandoned the natural function of the woman and burned in their desire toward one another, men with men committing indecent acts and receiving in their own persons the due penalty of their error.
28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,
29 being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,
30 slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,
31 without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;
32 and, although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

Once again, homosexuality is among a list of sins.

[jamesglewisf]

1 Timothy 1:8-10
8 But we know that the Law is good, if one uses it lawfully,
9 realizing the fact that law is not made for a righteous man, but for those who are lawless and rebellious, for the ungodly and sinners, for the unholy and profane, for those who kill their fathers or mothers, for murderers
10 and immoral men and homosexuals and kidnappers and liars and perjurers, and whatever else is contrary to sound teaching,

Once again, in the midst of a list of sins.

[jamesglewisf]

So, what is the church's response supposed to be to homosexuals? The same as it is to liars, perjurers, fornicators, adulterers, gossips, drunks, etc. We are all sinners, and we are all in need of forgiveness. Homosexuals are not a special class of sinners. Like the rest of us, they are supposed to give up their sin and live their lives for God.

Did you know that the guy who wrote each of the passages I quoted here was a murderer? He killed Christians before becoming one himself. But he confessed his sin to God, recognized that he could never be good enough to get into heaven, and asked Jesus to forgive his sins. If God will forgive a repentant murderer, I think he will forgive a repentant homosexual. But repenting means to change your mind about your sin, to accept what God has to say about it, and to change your actions also.

Now that I am a Christian, I still sin. So did Paul, the author of those passages. Hopefully, I sin less; and when I do sin, I am sorry and work harder to not repeat it.

[jamesglewisf]

So, can you be a homosexual and a Christian? Well, can you be a habitual liar and a Christian? Can you be an active murderer and a Christian?

The Bible is pretty simplistic. It says that you can't be a slave to sin and a slave to Christ (Romans 6). It says that a good tree bears good fruit, and a bad tree bears bad fruit. You shall know them by their fruit (Matthew 7). We are supposed to bring forth fruit in keeping with our repentance (Matthew 3:8).

I John 1:6-10
6 If we say that we have fellowship with Him and yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth;
7 but if we walk in the light as He Himself is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus His Son cleanses us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we are deceiving ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, He is faithful and righteous to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us.

So, we are all sinners and continue to sin. But if we have a lifestyle of sin, if we actively practice and promote our sin while calling ourselves Christians, we lie and do not practice the truth.

[jamesglewisf]

I John 2:3-6
3 And by this we know that we have come to know Him, if we keep His commandments.
4 The one who says, "I have come to know Him," and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him;
5 but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him:
6 the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked.

Do you see how simple it is? If we say that we do not sin, we are liars. If we say that we are Christians and yet reject His commandments, we are liars. We will never be perfect like Christ, but we strive to be like Him.

[jamesglewisf]

I hope I didn't overwhelm you. I just hate it when Christians (not you) rant and rave about homosexuality like it is some special class of sin, and yet they pass over lying, cheating, stealing, and adultery as lesser sins. That's malarkey, and it is not what the Bible says. Jesus' death paid the penalty for any sin. God didn't look back at the cross and say, "Oops. We forgot about homosexuals. I guess they are doomed to hell." That's ridiculous. He died for homosexuals just like He died for me.

If I can get in, so can anybody else. You just have to believe that Jesus died on the cross to pay the penalty for your sin and that He rose from the dead to purchase a place for you in heaven. Read more about it here.

Anat, I hope all of this answers your question about homosexuality and the Bible. It's an excellent question.

[Anat]

Thanks Jim!

You sure put your heart into this and I really appreciate the effort. I also like your stand that homosexuality is no worse than any other sin, just the same. Personally I totally disagree - I don't think homosexuals are doing something wrong, even if the Bible says so.

I think that I can make my own judgement of right and wrong. I think lying, stealing and killing are morally wrong because they hurt other people. I don't think that homosexuals hurt anyone and if they choose to live as male/male or female/female couples that's fine with me. I would much rather have around me nice stable homosexual couples than some religious people that I know, who can be rude and "not nice" - but that's another argument and is not a necessarily a theological one. Again, that's not saying that what you say is wrong - that's your belief and I'm fine with it really. As long as you don't believe them to be eternally doomed or trying to harm them - that's fine.

I have another question in theology, if I may. Do Christians have to follow the laws of the Old Testament? What do you do with the explicit laws of keeping "kosher" food? As far as I know, the Bible specifically says that you must not eat pork - the pig is the one animal that is specifically mentioned in the bible as a big "no-no".

Again Jim, I really appreciate your effort, and I hope I'm not nagging. This is very interesting for me and I really do appreciate the time you take to teach!

Thanks !

Anat

[TWTCommish]

Homosexuality hurts God...it hurts him to see us defying him like that. We can't see God, but he's there, and he's hurt by it.

I don't know where homosexuality ranks on the list of sins...but it has to be up higher than your average sin, because being gay is an entire LIFESTYLE of sin...not just a sin here or a sin there. See what I mean?

The bottom line is that you cannot be okay with homosexuality and the Bible at the same time - the Bible is very clear on this issue. Thanks for the passages, James.

[Anat]

Chris,

Do you think there are no gay preists, rabbis, pastors etc.?
I'm pretty sure there are and I don't see God being too angry about it.
Besides Cbreeze had a great point there - if you're gay what is better to practice your sexual preference or to lie about it to others and to yourself? Both are sins aren't they?

By the way, to the best of my knowledge being a lesbian is fine with the Bible. The words in Hebrew which you translate to homosexuality are very specifically about males... Gay women should be fine by any standard then...

Anat

[TWTCommish]

Originally posted by Anat

Do you think there are no gay preists, rabbis, pastors etc.?
I'm pretty sure there are and I don't see God being too angry about it.

He's forgiving, if that's what you mean. I don't care if a priest is gay: it's wrong, and he's putting up a bad example, to boot. Priests sin like everyone else.

Originally posted by Anat

Besides Cbreeze had a great point there - if you're gay what is better to practice your sexual preference or to lie about it to others and to yourself? Both are sins aren't they?

I didn't say to lie about it - I said they should change, or try to change. Don't know where I said they should lie about it...

Originally posted by Anat
By the way, to the best of my knowledge being a lesbian is fine with the Bible. The words in Hebrew which you translate to homosexuality are very specifically about males... Gay women should be fine by any standard then...

I'm fairly sure James could come up with somethng similar...besides, isn't lesbianism heavily implied to be wrong when the passage stats that homosexuality is wrong because if "goes against God's plan to have a man and a woman together"? It's just common sense.

I may be way off base, but: are you gay yourself?

[Anat]

No, not really... I'm a 28 years old woman, happily living with my absolutely wonderful boyfriend (practically husband). We're together for almost 5 years now and hoping for a baby this year.

Still, I don't think I would mind if one of my brothers, sister or any future children would be gay. Doesn't seem much of a problem really. I guess I'm just too liberal I don't believe that a person can actually change his/her sexual preference. Trying to would probably mean lying very hard to themselves, IMHO. I did some research on the subject of homosexuality in different cultures. It was part of a paper for a seminar in English Literature about E.M. Forster's book "Maurice". It's preety interesting stuff actually.

Chris, I hope you're not too upset about the things I'm saying. I really don't mean to upset anyone. I totally respect your views and feelings about this issue (and others).

I enjoy a good debate and as I said the love of my life is somewhere in the Himalayas right now, so I guess that's why I'm putting a lot of time into these debates

I can go on and give you nagging questions to try and deal with, but please remember that they are meant to be thought-provocative and not just provocative for the sake of provocation.

[cbreeze]

Jim,

Just wanted to say "thanks" for your time and replys to Anat.

As I have said somewhere before, I'm not a Bible school scholar, and have had very little involvement in my Church, but that is not to say that I do not believe in God.

Religion and politics are 2 highly debatable subjects, and I try to steer clear of those topics with anybody, for the simple reasons that I don't feel that I'm educated enough in them enough to discuss them. And 2, too many people are too eager to push their opinions, rather that just offer their opinions. I'm up for any discussion that is going to teach me, rather than convert me. And 3, I feel like the more I try to make my point, that I am indeed trying to convert the other party to my beliefs. (And that is never my intention, with any topic).

And that is why I am saying thanks to you. Your reply's to Anat were educational and insightful to me....without being on the pushy side.